Has your view changed after today's media coverage?

[y00ycdz]

First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

 

[RyanM]

After seeing everyone happy and celebrating and free, the uptight Republican in me realized that I was totally wrong to support the war!

These people are free now!!!! Isn't our job as hate-mongering right-wingers to keep darkie down? And now an entire country of dark-skinned people is free! DAMNIT! WE FAILED!!!!

</end sarcasm>

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: y00ycdz
First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

You have to put this "people have died" thing into perspective. If nothing was done, many more would have died on average over the same period of time.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: y00ycdz
First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

You have to put this "people have died" thing into perspective. If nothing was done, many more would have died on average over the same period of time.

That's wishful thinking.

I think it was one big mess. Hopefully though it will be over soon and the troops can come home.

 

[Tab]

One big mess? The massive demenstrations that have taken place prove the US did the right thing.

 

[TheNinja]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: y00ycdz
First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

You have to put this "people have died" thing into perspective. If nothing was done, many more would have died on average over the same period of time.

That's wishful thinking.

I think it was one big mess. Hopefully though it will be over soon and the troops can come home.

It's not "wishful thinking", it's FACT. Saddam killed thousands of people a year directly (through execution and murder) and indirectly (holding money/food from his people to build palaces and bunkers). You know this as it has been pointed out numerous times in other topics in this forum. Quit playing the same cards over and over again, it is getting stale. My view has stayed the same but gotten even stronger in fact. I was for the war at the beginning and now I'm positive we were right in doing it.

 

[no0b]

Originally posted by: MachFive
After seeing everyone happy and celebrating and free, the uptight Republican in me realized that I was totally wrong to support the war!

These people are free now!!!! Isn't our job as hate-mongering right-wingers to keep darkie down? And now an entire country of dark-skinned people is free! DAMNIT! WE FAILED!!!!

</end sarcasm>

ROFL!

Have a :beer:

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: no0b

Originally posted by: MachFive
After seeing everyone happy and celebrating and free, the uptight Republican in me realized that I was totally wrong to support the war!

These people are free now!!!! Isn't our job as hate-mongering right-wingers to keep darkie down? And now an entire country of dark-skinned people is free! DAMNIT! WE FAILED!!!!

</end sarcasm>

ROFL!

Have a :beer:

Thanks mate! I could use a pint of the black stuff.

 

[Gaard]

I was thinking today how it must've been for these people to have lived all of their lives (or most of it, at least) in such a state that they're driven to celebrating in the streets at the elimination of their country's ruling party. Did these people ever have a reason to smile? Yes, it's a good thing that Saddam is gone.

Just remember, the liberation of the Iraqi people, as gratifying to us as it is...and as joyful and thankful as they are to us, is just a by-product of this war. According to many of the members here, anyways.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Staley8

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: y00ycdz
First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

You have to put this "people have died" thing into perspective. If nothing was done, many more would have died on average over the same period of time.

That's wishful thinking.

I think it was one big mess. Hopefully though it will be over soon and the troops can come home.

It's not "wishful thinking", it's FACT. Saddam killed thousands of people a year directly (through execution and murder) and indirectly (holding money/food from his people to build palaces and bunkers). You know this as it has been pointed out numerous times in other topics in this forum. Quit playing the same cards over and over again, it is getting stale. My view has stayed the same but gotten even stronger in fact. I was for the war at the beginning and now I'm positive we were right in doing it.

So what CPA is saying, and you seem to agree....is that over the last couple of weeks more people would have died by Hussein's hands than if US soldiers killed them? Seems a bit far fetched to me.

Now the idea of US military strength overpowering Iraq was never in question. Whether Hussein was a bad man was never in question. So the US winning and many people being happy about getting rid of him doesn't really prove anything.

The question is in the way it was handled, how the aftermath is handled, the costs (human and financial), Iraqi public opnion in the next months/years, and stability in the region as well as many other factors.

 

[MacBaine]

I wonder where all the people who said "Nobody in Iraq supports this war" went?

Looks like we won 2 wars today!

 

[TheNinja]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Staley8

Originally posted by: flavio

That's wishful thinking.

I think it was one big mess. Hopefully though it will be over soon and the troops can come home.

It's not "wishful thinking", it's FACT. Saddam killed thousands of people a year directly (through execution and murder) and indirectly (holding money/food from his people to build palaces and bunkers). You know this as it has been pointed out numerous times in other topics in this forum. Quit playing the same cards over and over again, it is getting stale. My view has stayed the same but gotten even stronger in fact. I was for the war at the beginning and now I'm positive we were right in doing it.

So what CPA is saying, and you seem to agree....is that over the last couple of weeks more people would have died by Hussein's hands than if US soldiers killed them? Seems a bit far fetched to me.

Now the idea of US military strength overpowering Iraq was never in question. Whether Hussein was a bad man was never in question. So the US winning and many people being happy about getting rid of him doesn't really prove anything.

The question is in the way it was handled, how the aftermath is handled, the costs (human and financial), Iraqi public opnion in the next months/years, and stability in the region as well as many other factors.

Ok, I can't say for sure (and obviously nobody can know for sure) that over the past 3 weeks more civilians would have died from Saddam than in the war. But what I can say is that if you look at the average death over the years of Saddam's rule and divide that into a 3 week segment and then take how many civilians died during the past three weeks due to war you would be surprised. But I think the more important issue is to take the average death over the years of Saddam's rule and then look at the average death of post Saddam rule (we will have to wait for these figures of course) and see how they compare.....that will be the true test.

 

[Akaz1976]

I have been and continue to be opponent of war. But i have not been the most vehmenant opponent of war simply because i had no alternatives for war. As far as i could see the only alternative to war was continued sanctions and that to me was more brutal than the war it self. Or a more unlikely alternative was to remove sanctions while SH was in power and this to me was even less appealing. So though i continue to oppose war, i must admit that i am at a loss for an alternative.

To me personally (i am muslim born and raised in Pakistan) the ideal solution would have been that muslims had gotten rid of SH (should have gotten rid of him in early 80s). For it is duty of muslims to help oppressed in general and oppressed muslims in particular (and islam, to best of my limited knowledge, makes no distinction between a muslim oppressor or non-muslim one). Unfortunately such is the state of my people that tho many are ready to 'protest' the invasion by the 'infidels', few if any actually speak out against the tyranny and oppression by our own rulers.

Just to point out, before some one accuses me of being 'enlightened' by the western civilization , i do firmly believe that US Govt. has done in the past and continues to do today what ever is in its self interest, at the expense of hopes and aspiration (whatever they may be) of bulk of the muslim world (support of Egyptian and Saudi govts immediately spring to mind). For US much rather have unpopular 'secular' nationalist despots(nearly all of the arab nations are ruled by nationalists and incidently SH was one of these) rather than populist islamists (some what similar to how US prefered despots in Latin American and else where rather than populist communists during cold war). I dont blame US Govt. for doing that nor would i complain about it for leaders of any nation are suppose to do what is in that nations interest and not work for the good of the world. Thus my belief that the liberation of people of Iraq was incidental at best and i would be interesting to note how things pan out from here (for instance what would happen if islamist gain popularity and look like wining elections?).

Akaz

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: flavio

So what CPA is saying, and you seem to agree....is that over the last couple of weeks more people would have died by Hussein's hands than if US soldiers killed them? Seems a bit far fetched to me.

Now the idea of US military strength overpowering Iraq was never in question. Whether Hussein was a bad man was never in question. So the US winning and many people being happy about getting rid of him doesn't really prove anything.

The question is in the way it was handled, how the aftermath is handled, the costs (human and financial), Iraqi public opnion in the next months/years, and stability in the region as well as many other factors.

I think what most people like CPA and others are expressing is that, in one year from now, how many civilians would have died under the continued rule of the former Iraqi regime, and how many will have died, including the civilian war casualties, under a newly formulated government. If things go half as well as planned, I think it might be safe to say the difference will be very substantial; that there will be many more Iraqis alive than there would have been under Saddam.

The US winning and many people being happy proves something tremendously. It proves that the Iraqis did not want to fight for Saddam, as was speculated correctly by many US leaders. It proves that when a war campaign is handled effectively with as minimum civilian loss as reasonably possible, and with the clear goal of removing a regime rather than subduing a people, that the general civilian poplulation, after being subjected to years of rule under a cruel dictatorial thumb, will not rise up to defend their dictator but will rise up to greet and rejoice with those who would remove the yoke of tyranny.

I'll agree with you that the administration handled the international support badly but only if you'll agree that the so-called "international community" handled it equally badly. As for the aftermath and future of Iraq, we'll have to wait and see about that, but if it goes the way the naysayers predicted the war would go, then we'll be doing quite well at that after all is said and done.

 

[swifty3]

I don't think my views have changed any. We will have to wait and see, a year or two from now, how things r going. Nice to have Saddam out of the picture for the moment though. Hopefully the fighting will end soon, and things can begin to move forward. The less people killed the better.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: y00ycdz
First off, I just noticed anandtech had a war and the midddle east category in the forum, lol .....

Hopefully this wasn't asked already, tried a search....

After today's coverage of somewhat liberated Iraq and how happy the people look, has your view of the war changed, mainly this is to those who were against the war. Seeing the Iraqis on tv today insanely overjoyed that Saddam was pretty much out of their life must have changed some minds....

I am pretty much half way on the war, its bad deffinetely because many people have died and will continue to die until its over, and of course for the war because Saddam has been in power for far too long... He's done nothing for his people...

You have to put this "people have died" thing into perspective. If nothing was done, many more would have died on average over the same period of time.

That's wishful thinking.

I think it was one big mess. Hopefully though it will be over soon and the troops can come home.

No, it's fact, about 10,000 people died every month under sanctions, maybe 1,500 in the month of war..... How many will die next month due to sanctions?

Hey Flavio, you can't seem to stop saying the US was responsible for the sanctions, are you even aware the UN STILL has them in effect, they are trying to determine what would be a good time to hold a meeting to discuss the need to possibly remove them, typical Un exdpediency. Are you going to cry about the US violating them because we are bringing in some medicines still being "sanctioned" by the UN? lol

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: swifty3
I don't think my views have changed any. We will have to wait and see, a year or two from now, how things r going. Nice to have Saddam out of the picture for the moment though. Hopefully the fighting will end soon, and things can begin to move forward. The less people killed the better.

I hope to live long enough to see the repercussions of this war, and it won't be a year or two. More like 20 or 30 years.
All the cheerleaders who point to media coverage of happy Iraqis in the streets and say " I told you so" are being a bit naive.
The final disposition of things remains to be seen, especially with regards to the Kurds and Turkey. This war has destabilized the region, for an unknown period of time. I certainly do not have the knowledge to predict what is going to happen, but I know it is not "all better now".

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought Bush ran on a platform not to use the US military to save other people from dictators. That idea was an afterthought when all the other lies for starting the way failed to convince people. We haven't even begun to see what will result from our preemptive attack on an other country as per the doctrine of a new American century that fell on opportunity.

By the way, there will be dancing on my street when we get regime change here.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought Bush ran on a platform not to use the US military to save other people from dictators. That idea was an afterthought when all the other lies for starting the way failed to convince people. We haven't even begun to see what will result from our preemptive attack on an other country as per the doctrine of a new American century that fell on opportunity.

By the way, there will be dancing on my street when we get regime change here.

Ahh, so you wish to throw out the Constitution and install a whole new form of government? You sure you wouldn't be happier in place such as Cuba, China or North Korea? I hear the worker's paradise is lovely this time of year.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought Bush ran on a platform not to use the US military to save other people from dictators. That idea was an afterthought when all the other lies for starting the way failed to convince people. We haven't even begun to see what will result from our preemptive attack on an other country as per the doctrine of a new American century that fell on opportunity.

By the way, there will be dancing on my street when we get regime change here.

Guess you thought wrong there moony.

The 2000 Republican Platform adopted on August 31, 2000

<snip>
A Military for the Twenty-First Century
Protecting the Fellowship of Freedom from Weapons of Mass Destruction
</snip>

Hmm....

Now I know what you were trying to say but your exact words are wrong and try to paint Bush as a hypocrit. I'm still trying to dig up that quote that you are butchering (about using the military as a world police force)


CkG

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought Bush ran on a platform not to use the US military to save other people from dictators. That idea was an afterthought when all the other lies for starting the way failed to convince people. We haven't even begun to see what will result from our preemptive attack on an other country as per the doctrine of a new American century that fell on opportunity.

By the way, there will be dancing on my street when we get regime change here.

Don't you mean, "there will be dancing under my bridge when we get regime change here."?

Oh...you make it so easy, moon.

heh heh

Seriously, it's possible a dramatic shift in Washington could occur should Bush and the administration screw up the situation of stabilizing Iraq and helping them to setup a democratic government. I, for one, will be looking for better leadership if that happens.

 

[apoppin]

"Has your view changed after today's media coverage?"

No . . . .I am still of the opinion that "two wrongs don't make a 'right' ".

And although I have always supported our troops and hoped the very best for them, I am surprised - no, make it "shocked" - that the US and British "won" so handily.

The Anglo-American military strategy was excellent; HOWEVER - Saddam put up the WORST DEFENSE OF ANY COUNTRY - except the French (and maybe the Italians) - EVER. It leaves me to still wonder if there is "something" left (still like my old "worst case scenario"). If not, he is really a "2-bit dictator" and I am really surprised our CIA could not take him out.

What MAY change my opinion is how Iraq will fare after the war is (really/finally) over and anarchy is averted . . . and how the rest of the world - especially the Arabs - view the progress.

 

[Moonbeam]

conjur:

Seriously, it's possible a dramatic shift in Washington could occur should Bush and the administration screw up the situation of stabilizing Iraq and helping them to setup a democratic government. I, for one, will be looking for better leadership if that happens.
------------------
For the love of God, don't wait for that. And don't forget, a democracy in Iraq could be dangerous. What if the people see Israel as a threat and decide to preemptively attack it or decide to sell their oil to China. Goodness knows what fools democrats can be. I think Iraq needs a nice steady Republican American hand to guide them to the light for quite some time yet. You don't want to risk democracy till you thoroughly manage people's thinking through a lifetime of propaganda.