Has wealth and power been concentrated in too few people in America?

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SickBeast
My big issue is with the way corporations are run. The BOG can give themselves as many raises as they want along with golden parachutes, and will often earn over 200 times what 'regular' workers in the company make. It's not fair.

Since when is life fair???

It's supposed to be if you have any connotation of religion.

What religion preaches life should be fair? Christianity sure doesnt...

Yes it does. All men are created equal under God. That is a Christian doctrine.

Created equal != fair. Go read the book of Lamentations and then tell me again how Christianity teaches about fair.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Since when is life fair???

It's supposed to be if you have any connotation of religion.

Absolutely false. And I hear this argument often from people who are not that religious. It's probably more accurate to say you are entitled to justice -- similar consequences resulting from a particular action. Whereas fairness is subjective and is based around expectation of a similar outcome, with the effort expended to achieve said outcome as a secondary consideration.

So in other words...stop whining, get off your a$$, be creative/savvy/shrewd, and make your life better. Oh yeah...and rely on no one to do it for you, least of all our govt.

Christianity absolutely preaches fairness and equality. I don't know where you guys are getting this stuff.

Everyone will have their day of judgment when they die. We are all bound by the same commandments. We are also equally loved by God, and were created in his image.

No, it doesnt. It teaches justice and consequences. Very big difference. Your second sentence I agree with 100%, but it has nothing to do with "fair".

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

Sounds perfect to me too. "Run as fast as you can in your own lane" is the essence of capitalism and competition.

I love how liberals like to complain that Republicans are so mean because many (including myself) have a "I got mine, now go out and work for yours" attitude. But is that really so unfair an attitude when you really think about it?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Wealth concentration not a problem, only that people's lives are getting better. Did the lower class have air conditioning 50 years ago? No. Do they now? Yes.

What about 100 years ago? What about during the dark ages? Although technology has improved and generally become available over time to the lower classes, that does not mean that the problems inherent with excessive concentration of wealth have gone away. With wealth comes power, and with power comes control of nations.

Which is why a democracy no longer exists when the government functions to redistribute wealth. After it has taken all the wealth and power away from its people, the people are no longer in control of their nation.

Among the many things I find wrong with that sentiment, you may want to consider the difference between redistribution and taking of wealth. They are not interchangable. If anything, the government functions to prevent wealth/power from being taken away from people. This can be done a variety of ways, either through redistribution, regulation, oversight, etc. etc. However, what many call 'redistribution' these days are the only policies that seem to be preventing the robber-baron style accumulation of wealth that really does kill democracy. As Rockefeller himself said, (in a well known political 'toon of the time by Horace Taylor), "What a funny little government.."

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

Ahhh so stealing is ok only when the rich take from the poor, not the other way around.

Republicans.txt

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

Ahhh so stealing is ok only when the rich take from the poor, not the other way around.

Republicans.txt

The ant and the grasshopper doesn't have anything to do with rich or poor. It has to do who is doing the work. Rich does not mean hard working, but neither does poor. Regardless of rich or poor, the people who really have lost out in the past several years are the hard working. The lazy wealthy and poor have both been stealing from the productive, and THAT is what will destroy this country.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

Ahhh so stealing is ok only when the rich take from the poor, not the other way around.

Republicans.txt

The ant and the grasshopper doesn't have anything to do with rich or poor. It has to do who is doing the work. Rich does not mean hard working, but neither does poor. Regardless of rich or poor, the people who really have lost out in the past several years are the hard working. The lazy wealthy and poor have both been stealing from the productive, and THAT is what will destroy this country.

YOu know, it's very possible to be in a profession that requires hard work and also happens to steal from everyone (i.e. mortgages brokes, people in wall street), which was what i was referring to.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Phokus
Sometimes i wish the government would just let the financial markets collapse. I figure a couple of those, there'd be no such thing as a republican anymore. You idiots live in some sort of fantasy world where there's no such thing as market failure and government is the root of all problems.

Free market supporters understand that there is always the potential for massive market failure. What they're against is taking food from the ant to give to the grasshopper in the name of "fairness."

Thanks to Wall Street and the free market, it was the other way around: the Ant took from the Grasshopper.

Those that work hard take from those who don't? Sounds perfect to me.

Ahhh so stealing is ok only when the rich take from the poor, not the other way around.

Republicans.txt

The ant and the grasshopper doesn't have anything to do with rich or poor. It has to do who is doing the work. Rich does not mean hard working, but neither does poor. Regardless of rich or poor, the people who really have lost out in the past several years are the hard working. The lazy wealthy and poor have both been stealing from the productive, and THAT is what will destroy this country.

YOu know, it's very possible to be in a profession that requires hard work and also happens to steal from everyone (i.e. mortgages brokes, people in wall street), which was what i was referring to.

I can't argue with you there.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
...
The ant and the grasshopper doesn't have anything to do with rich or poor. It has to do who is doing the work. Rich does not mean hard working, but neither does poor. Regardless of rich or poor, the people who really have lost out in the past several years are the hard working. The lazy wealthy and poor have both been stealing from the productive, and THAT is what will destroy this country.

So odd ... I couldn't agree more with this. Is there just one person posting on this account?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: BoberFett
...
The ant and the grasshopper doesn't have anything to do with rich or poor. It has to do who is doing the work. Rich does not mean hard working, but neither does poor. Regardless of rich or poor, the people who really have lost out in the past several years are the hard working. The lazy wealthy and poor have both been stealing from the productive, and THAT is what will destroy this country.

So odd ... I couldn't agree more with this. Is there just one person posting on this account?

Just little old libertarian me.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
It's supposed to be [fair] if you have any connotation of religion.

oh, really? So non-christians who refuse to accept Christ as their savior will also get into Heaven alongside every Christian? I mean, that would be the ultimate example of "fairness," right?

woops.

 

[shadow9d9]

My father could make more money in 3 months investing than 99.9% of the people here will make in their whole lives. Money creates money. Putting away 10k each year will never get you to that level.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I've seen a study that charted income growth when either a Lib or a Con was in office.

Predictably, when a Con was in office persons with higher incomes saw a higher percentage of wage growth than those with lower incomes.

And when a Lib was in office persons with lower incomes saw a higher percentage of wage growth than those with higher incomes.

The Important Point: Everyone showed wage growth.

The rich did MUCH better under Clinton than under Bush, and this was before the Bush stock market crash.

That is simply not true.

The GWB tax cuts created 8 million new jobs.
2000 - 130,800,000 jobs
2001 - 132,500,000 jobs <-beginning of 9/11 "recession"
2002 - 130,900,000 jobs <-end of 9/11 "recession" (but still in slow down mode)
2003 - 129,900,000 jobs <- GWB Tax Cuts
2007 - 138,000,000 jobs

Adjusted Income - Number of Returns 2003/2006 - Change - Taxes Paid 2003/2006 (In Billions) - Change
1 to 2 Million - 115,712/214,438 - 85% Increase - $41/$71 - 73% Increase
2 to 5 Million - 48,278/98,724 - 104% Increase - $37/$72 - 95% Increase
5 million or more - 17,294/40,931 - 137% Increase - $54/$131 - 143% Increase
--
1 million or more - 181,283/354,093 - 95% Increase - $132/$273 - 107% Increase

During this time there was a 95% increase in millionaires. Furthermore, while there was a DECREASE in taxes on these millionaires, there was a revenue increase of 107%.

So the Bush tax cuts not only created jobs but also created more millionaires.

Show me the correlation between his tax cuts and job creation besides for wishful thinking. You might as well claim that going to Iraq caused us not to be attacked again.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: bamacre
This is a lecture about the shrinking middle class given by Elizabeth Warren who is Commercial Law Professor at Harvard.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/642.html

What she has found is that in 1970 the average 2 child family of 4 spent 50% of their income on hard expenses, those that are not adjustable (mortgage, taxes, health insurance, college, cars, etc.) and in 2005 they spent 75% of their income on these same expenses.

So this bears the ugly question, why did these items increase in cost compared to the other expenditures? To me, the answer is obvious. Government involvement.

I agree, if only the government didn't sign NAFTA, deregulated our financial markets, and cut taxes for the wealthy, we'd be in far better shape. Glad you're coming along bamacre.

In fact the housing markets were doomed because of OVER regulation in the form of the Community Reinvestment Act. I would agree that Glass-Steagall Act should not have been repealed.

...And who do we have to thank for both? Bill Clinton.

The republican controlled congress? Nah,....

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
The republican controlled congress? Nah,....

Does that mean that we can blame the Democrat-controlled Congress for every penny spent on bailouts and "stimulus" packages in the last three years? So no more of the "But Bush started them..." responses?

oh, woops.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Yes, but the blame lies squarely on the shoulder of consumers. Rather than saving and investing and building their own wealth, most people borrow their way into massive debt so they can buy overpriced trinkets and toys from those wealthy individuals.

Well, it's certainly true that Americans have forgotten the value of saving - instead spending their way into massive debts. We've got a credit problem, without a doubt. But I'd also agree that, through their influence in American politics, the wealthy have been able to shape legislation in order to protect their upper-crust. Not that I blame them - they're protecting themselves, as any would do.

The issue shouldn't be about how to bring them down to 'our' level, or how to redistribute their wealth, but instead we should be focusing on organic job creation in new markets and building strong social programs which encourage (and require) engagement on all levels.

 

[1LordEmperor1]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
My father could make more money in 3 months investing than 99.9% of the people here will make in their whole lives. Money creates money. Putting away 10k each year will never get you to that level.

That's a huge problem, what do you do when you don't have any?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: 1LordEmperor1

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
My father could make more money in 3 months investing than 99.9% of the people here will make in their whole lives. Money creates money. Putting away 10k each year will never get you to that level.

That's a huge problem, what do you do when you don't have any?

Align yourself with someone who does. Be prepared to make some serious decisions about how much to compromise yourself.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
The republican controlled congress? Nah,....

Does that mean that we can blame the Democrat-controlled Congress for every penny spent on bailouts and "stimulus" packages in the last three years? So no more of the "But Bush started them..." responses?

oh, woops.

Yes it does. Next?

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: 1LordEmperor1

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
My father could make more money in 3 months investing than 99.9% of the people here will make in their whole lives. Money creates money. Putting away 10k each year will never get you to that level.

That's a huge problem, what do you do when you don't have any?

study harder? work harder? find a better paying job?

what a concept!