Has Trump killed P & N?

[fskimospy]

Pretty much. No matter who wins at this point, I swear, we're becoming ungovernable.

The Republicans are already promising to start more investigations into Clinton before she has even won the election, much less spent a day in office. Think of how insane that is: one party is publicly promising to attempt to sabotage the next president before they spent a single day doing the job. This is a party that has completely abandoned any sense of obligation to the country or to effective governing.

I hope for the sake of the country Democrats are somehow able to win the House so that we can at least get a couple years of productive governance in before the craziness sets back in.

 

[Jaskalas]

Pretty much. No matter who wins at this point, I swear, we're becoming ungovernable.

The Senate's voting rules have a lot to do with that.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Thread quality and participation seems to have taken a dive. I'm wondering if the absurdity of Trump, the absurdity of anything one can say about him, the terribly embarrassing feat required to defend him hasn't driven away more rational conservatives and left more rational liberals rather bored with the whole election cycle.

Does anybody see this or is it just me? If you think the decline is true, what reasons would you give?

Trump brings out the worst in everyone including me.

 

[dank69]

The Senate's voting rules have a lot to do with that.

Don't blame the system. Republicans have no incentive to work with Democrats and at this point it isn't even malicious for many of them. They are punished by the GOP base any time they even mention they are considering working with Democrats.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So you claim our threads trashing Trump have no substance but admit nothing Trump proposes has any substance? Okay...

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree that Trump's authoritarian proposals aren't worth discussing.

No. All Trump threads devolve into either a drum circle of bashing Trump, which is an easy target, or the bashing of his supporters, which to me is a misaligned target. As I've stated previously and on several occasions, Trump managed to channel and manipulate an underlying emotional wave in the electorate of people who feel politically and economically ignored and forgotten. Those underyling emotions don't magically disappear just because you defeat Trump, and some of those underlying emotions have some merit. It's not all deplorable, although Trump and some of his supporters certainly are.

 

[Starbuck1975]

In the context of the election that's just pretense & concern trolling.

^
Case in point

 

[fskimospy]

No. All Trump threads devolve into either a drum circle of bashing Trump, which is an easy target, or the bashing of his supporters, which to me is a misaligned target. As I've stated previously and on several occasions, Trump managed to channel and manipulate an underlying emotional wave in the electorate of people who feel politically and economically ignored and forgotten. Those underyling emotions don't magically disappear just because you defeat Trump, and some of those underlying emotions have some merit. It's not all deplorable, although Trump and some of his supporters certainly are.

They do have some merit, although personally I think that those individuals are primarily concerned with a perceived loss of status in society to women and minorities. I'm okay with ignoring that concern because individuals who have that concern are bad people. It's not all Trump supporters, many of whom I imagine are just partisan Republicans who would support the Republican nominee no matter who it was, but I think that the truly activist Trump supporters are pretty horrible and worthy of being ignored.

 

[dank69]

No. All Trump threads devolve into either a drum circle of bashing Trump, which is an easy target, or the bashing of his supporters, which to me is a misaligned target. As I've stated previously and on several occasions, Trump managed to channel and manipulate an underlying emotional wave in the electorate of people who feel politically and economically ignored and forgotten. Those underyling emotions don't magically disappear just because you defeat Trump, and some of those underlying emotions have some merit. It's not all deplorable, although Trump and some of his supporters certainly are.

Studies have shown that about 2/3rds of Trump's supporters have not graduated college yet 77% make more than $50k/year. Yet these people feel economically ignored. That's called ignorance, my friend. Liberals try to inform these people all the time but that process goes so poorly that the conservative reaction to facts can only be described as a brain defect. So, if we can't have a rational discussion with them we might as well mock the shit out of them.

 

[Jhhnn]

^
Case in point

Hardly. No matter what the topic, you'll segue into a Clinton bashing opportunity.

 

[vi edit]

Studies have shown that about 2/3rds of Trump's supporters have not graduated college yet 77% make more than $50k/year. Yet these people feel economically ignored. That's called ignorance, my friend. Liberals try to inform these people all the time but that process goes so poorly that the conservative reaction to facts can only be described as a brain defect. So, if we can't have a rational discussion with them we might as well mock the shit out of them.

Can't reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into.

 

[dank69]

They do have some merit, although personally I think that those individuals are primarily concerned with a perceived loss of status in society to women and minorities. I'm okay with ignoring that concern because individuals who have that concern are bad people. It's not all Trump supporters, many of whom I imagine are just partisan Republicans who would support the Republican nominee no matter who it was, but I think that the truly activist Trump supporters are pretty horrible and worthy of being ignored.

Yeah, it's just coincidence that the map of the counties that show the most support for Trump just happens to mirror the map of racist Google searches:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/who-are-donald-trumps-supporters-really/471714/

They Live in Parts of the Country With Racial Resentment

Find a map of the United States and draw a thick red mark just east of the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers. That's Trump Country.

Although Trump appears to run equally well among moderates and conservatives in polls, Soltas found that, in New Hampshire, he dominated in more moderate counties. “For every 1 percentage point more liberal the precinct, Donald Trump's share of votes rises by 0.48 percentage points,” Soltas found.

According to the New York Times’ Nate Cohn, who used data from Civis Analytics, Trump’s support is strongest from the Gulf Coast, through the Appalachian Mountains, to New York, among marginally attached Republicans (possibly former Democrats). It is a familiar map for some demographers, since it’s similar to a heat map of Google searches for racial slurs and jokes. “That Mr. Trump’s support is strong in similar areas does not prove that most or even many of his supporters are motivated by racial animus,” Cohn writes. “But it is consistent with the possibility that at least some are.”

 

[Starbuck1975]

Hardly. No matter what the topic, you'll segue into a Clinton bashing opportunity.

So what

 

[hal2kilo]

Hardly. No matter what the topic, you'll segue into a Clinton bashing opportunity.

And the constant droning whine. Who would have guessed we don't have a perfect ( cause that what he wants) political system. Deal with it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Studies have shown that about 2/3rds of Trump's supporters have not graduated college yet 77% make more than $50k/year. Yet these people feel economically ignored. That's called ignorance, my friend. Liberals try to inform these people all the time but that process goes so poorly that the conservative reaction to facts can only be described as a brain defect. So, if we can't have a rational discussion with them we might as well mock the shit out of them.

The middle class is in decline. There was a time where you could make an honest living and live a comfortable life in this country without a college degree. Growing up, the kids I knew who had parents that went to college were the exception, not the rule.

Now, its hard to be a laborer or trades person when you have millions of undocumented competitors coming into this country and working under the table and for below market wages. We outsourced a fair amount of our manufacturing capability in favor of service industry bureaucracy. To the blue collar worker, its been a steady decline under both Republican and Democrat administrations.

Then along comes a brazen business mogul who is going to blow it all up. He is going to build a wall. He is going to be decisive. He is going to make america great again. Crazy suddenly sounds appealing.

You've not listened to these people. You've ignored them for decades. You've asserted your intellectual superiority to them. And now you want to shit on them.

 

[Starbuck1975]

And the constant droning whine. Who would have guessed we don't have a perfect ( cause that what he wants) political system. Deal with it.

At least you make a valid point. I am an idealist. Where would America be without idealism.

 

[dank69]

The middle class is in decline. There was a time where you could make an honest living and live a comfortable life in this country without a college degree. Growing up, the kids I knew who had parents that went to college were the exception, not the rule.

Now, its hard to be a laborer or trades person when you have millions of undocumented competitors coming into this country and working under the table and for below market wages. We outsourced a fair amount of our manufacturing capability in favor of service industry bureaucracy. To the blue collar worker, its been a steady decline under both Republican and Democrat administrations.

Then along comes a brazen business mogul who is going to blow it all up. He is going to build a wall. He is going to be decisive. He is going to make america great again. Crazy suddenly sounds appealing.

You've not listened to these people. You've ignored them for decades. You've asserted your intellectual superiority to them. And now you want to shit on them.

Anyone paying attention and/or not immune to facts knows that Republican policy is responsible for the decline of the middle class. We liberals actually have been listening all along. It is conservatives that refuse to listen to us.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Anyone paying attention and/or not immune to facts knows that Republican policy is responsible for the decline of the middle class. We liberals actually have been listening all along. It is conservatives that refuse to listen to us.

That's not entirely true. There's been a siesmic shift in the electorate these past few years.

It used to be that blue collar non-college educated unionized workers were a core constituency of the Democrats, but that demographic is oddly drawn to Trump.

College educated white collar workers, who used to fear tax and spend Democrats, have become increasingly socially progressive and are leaning more to the Democrats.

Who is listening to who exactly.

In a broken system, when trying to get to the root cause of disfunction, blaming the users is rarely the solution.

 

[First]

I called out the two policy pieces that make it painful to reject him.
I am 100% for limited immigration.

Trump's appeal comes from the fact that no one else will do that.

Except limited immigration is an inane policy, particularly the way Trump espouses it. It just throws the baby out with the bathwater when you shut down immigrants from Muslim "terror" countries, whatever the hell that means. Trump's immigration policy should be so manifestly dumb to anyone who thinks deeply about them; one example would be that Trump's policy would have kept out Steve Jobs' father, who was Syrian refugee from Homs, Syria! How's that for fucking stupid, backwards immigration policy badly hurting American innovation and growth?

 

[Grooveriding]

I wouldn't know about here, but he's killed off one of the last two brain cells the extremists among the Republican base had to rub together and manage critical thinking. I expect their crazy will go even deeper down the hole after Trump's loss with wild conspiracies. Once Clinton is president they will start calling her the literal antichrist and call for a holy war.

 

[alien42]

I called out the two policy pieces that make it painful to reject him.
I am 100% for limited immigration.

Trump's appeal comes from the fact that no one else will do that.

Trump's special guest to the third debate was a polygamist Muslim immigrant from a country dealing with Islamic terrorism who considered Qaddafi a close friend.

 

[bshole]

Thread quality and participation seems to have taken a dive. I'm wondering if the absurdity of Trump, the absurdity of anything one can say about him, the terribly embarrassing feat required to defend him hasn't driven away more rational conservatives and left more rational liberals rather bored with the whole election cycle.

Does anybody see this or is it just me? If you think the decline is true, what reasons would you give?

All the threads about Trump do get a bit tiring. Can't wait until this election is over and we can get into more interesting topics.

 

[dank69]

That's not entirely true. There's been a siesmic shift in the electorate these past few years.

It used to be that blue collar non-college educated unionized workers were a core constituency of the Democrats, but that demographic is oddly drawn to Trump.

College educated white collar workers, who used to fear tax and spend Democrats, have become increasingly socially progressive and are leaning more to the Democrats.

Who is listening to who exactly.

In a broken system, when trying to get to the root cause of disfunction, blaming the users is rarely the solution.

We are talking past each other. You are saying the middle class likes Trump because he is telling them what they want to hear. I am saying the same thing, with the added caveat that none of his policies are actually good for them, and in fact are the source of most of their problems.

 

[Moonbeam]

Boy, by the time I had read the beginnings of posts in this thread, I was very discouraged and was wondering why I bothered asking my questions, but at this point now I am really glad that I did. Geez, there are a really lot of what I think are incredibly insightful and intelligent posts here now and a lively and worthwhile debate. And I'm not referring to this: 'Moonbeam is clearly the most lucid poster in P&N', by zinfamous which is as kind as it is inaccurate. Thanks.

One thing I regret is that I did not mention Clinton as the source of decline in the threads, because, although she was not my favorite candidate, I also don't see her as some sort of moral leper that will somehow destroy the integrity of the nation, but others clearly do and that fact became quickly evident.

Again, there were so many intelligent things said that I will note only that I think so and not try to list them with one exception, vi edit's comment: 'Can't reason someone out of a position they never reasoned themselves into.', because it was not only cogent but cracked me up.

One theme that seems to repeat is that liberals and conservatives see each other as deluded programmed believers separated by an unbridgeable divide, one that portends great danger for out democratic system.

We have lost the quality of a polity of civility it would seem. Why? "Liberals try to inform these people all the time but that process goes so poorly that the conservative reaction to facts can only be described as a brain defect. So, if we can't have a rational discussion with them we might as well mock the shit out of them."

I have tried the mocking. I am constantly tempted to do more of it. I believe it's well earned. But I also feel ashamed that I react that way and I know too that what can be called a brain defect in one situation has survival benefits in another.

Say our country is being torn apart by irrational nonnegotiable political differences reinforced by suspicion hate or contempt, what is more important, the country or ones personal position? I am suggestion that civility might not be a virtue to be admired from a distance, but a survival requisite. Perhaps change is possible with frequent reminders of that fact. We sure need something..........

 

[Starbuck1975]

We are talking past each other. You are saying the middle class likes Trump because he is telling them what they want to hear. I am saying the same thing, with the added caveat that none of his policies are actually good for them, and in fact are the source of most of their problems.

We are in violent agreement

 

[Chaotic42]

Moonbeam, I've always considered you one of, if not the, most thoughtful posters here. I don't always agree with you, but when you speak, I listen, because chances are good that you've said something worth listening to. I don't post in P&N very much, though I've been more active lately. I'm annoyed with current political discourse in general, but it seems particularly bad here because people speak a lot without saying anything.

I understand being frustrated. Frustration is no reason to sink down to ad hominem attacks, to be dismissive, to be outright vulgar, or to paint people as caricatures. Look at a lot of the posts in this forum - I don't agree with the vast majority of what Trump says, but I understand those who do. I come from that group. I was raised in a very right-wing, white southern environment. I was so used to seeing liberals being treated in the ways I mentioned above - They were all hippies, or communists, or <insert some racist term>. I can tell you that it's neither productive nor accurate.

That Trump, Hillary, Johnson, or Stein supporter is more than just a one-dimensional cartoon. Even the most hard-core Trump supporter is a complex person with real thoughts, real feelings, real fears, and a real (to them) reason for supporting Trump. Same for any other candidate. The vast majority, save some fringe with mental issues, are in many ways reasonable. They can be talked to and understood. They all have the ability to grow, learn, and change their opinions. Even the vile ones are at times kind and caring.

This is why when people use terms like "libtard" or "conservitard", "Ovomit" or "Drumpf", "redneck" or "hippie", or any of the other myriad belittling terms for people they view as the enemy, I have a hard time continuing to listen. Not only are these names not constructive, they're actually destructive. Making these kinds of attacks marginalizes a group of people and reinforces the stereotype of a one-dimensional buffoon, incapable of change and growth, devoid of depth, complexity, and life experience. They add to the cacophony of the echo chamber, convincing others to stop trying civil discourse and further splitting people into us and them.

So while I may agree with many of the posters here on issues, it's hard to align myself with people who have given up on civility. There's no place in discussion for these kinds of attacks and it really does bother me to see people jump on each other like hyenas. Of course, none of you owe me anything, so I can't tell you what to do. I'd just ask that before you reply or start a thread, you ask yourself if what you're writing really contributes anything or if it's just an attempt to make yourself smile a little at someone else's cost.