Has our war on microbes weakened our immune system

[Texashiker]

Not an anti-vaccine thread

Link is to an authority site

Has our war on microbes left our immune systems prone to dysfunction?

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012...-of-absence-takes-on-the-worms-youre-missing/

A simplistic view of the hygiene hypothesis is that in the absence of something dangerous to fight against—the cholera toxin, for example—immune cells get confused, or bored, and fight against harmless stimuli like dust mites and peanuts instead. But there is a more nuanced view. Our immune systems co-evolved with an enormous community of microbes, and were in fact shaped by them.

By not letting our children get sick from common, and mostly harmless diseases, are we weakening the immune system in the long run?

Not just from vaccine diseases such as chicken pox, but fewer kids are playing in the ditches, fewer kids swimming in the rivers, eating dirt,,,, and other stuff that would build a healthy immune system.

What used to be rare allergies, such as peanut allergies are becoming more common. And why is that?

 

[momeNt]

Not an anti-vaccine thread

Link is to an authority site

Has our war on microbes left our immune systems prone to dysfunction?

http://arstechnica.com/science/2012...-of-absence-takes-on-the-worms-youre-missing/



By not letting our children get sick from common, and mostly harmless diseases, are we weakening the immune system in the long run?

Not just from vaccine diseases such as chicken pox, but fewer kids are playing in the ditches, fewer kids swimming in the rivers, eating dirt,,,, and other stuff that would build a healthy immune system.

What used to be rarely allergies, such as peanut allergies are becoming more common. And why is that?

I think the more crucial time for your immune system is before you could swim in a river or play in a ditch. Blame Tyvek and concrete for how sterile our homes and neighborhoods are more than romanticized country songs about drinking water from hoses.

 

[zsdersw]

There is a good deal of truth to this, I suspect.

An entire industry has sprung into life in recent times; a collection of sanitizing/disinfecting wipes, gels, and sprays... all built around making you dependent on those products to be and feel "safe" in a bigworld of germs.

 

[OutHouse]

By not letting our children get sick from common, and mostly harmless diseases, are we weakening the immune system in the long run?

no its pure bullshit.

 

[GobBluth]

Who knows.

I am a firm believer in kids getting dirty, getting the cold, poison ivy, etc.

 

[dank69]

I have great disdain for germaphobes, not just for their warped view of the world, but also for the audacity to look at the rest of us as if WE are the problem.

 

[Texashiker]

no its pure bullshit.

Then explain the increase in conditions like peanut allergies and Eczema.

I am 44 years old and had never heard of Eczema until about 4 or 5 years ago.

PB&J sandwiches were a common elementary school bagged lunch, now everything has peanut warnings on it.

 

[dank69]

Then explain the increase in conditions like peanut allergies ...

That's because of the silly laws that don't allow us to kill babies with peanut allergies before they can pollute the gene pool.

 

[OutHouse]

Then explain the increase in conditions like peanut allergies and Eczema.

I am 44 years old and had never heard of Eczema until about 4 or 5 years ago.

PB&J sandwiches were a common elementary school bagged lunch, now everything has peanut warnings on it.

more people = more genetic variances

I am 44 as well and knew several people who had eczema in high school along. its not a new disease.

According to Handbook of Eczema, Emperor Octavius Augustus of the Roman Empire is most likely the first person to be documented as an "atopic" individual. He was known to suffer from "extremely itchy skin, seasonal rhinitis, and tightness of the chest" [2].


http://www.eczemajourney.com/history-of-eczema.html
Sounds pretty darn close to the "atopic triad" symptoms of eczema, hay fever, and asthma, if you ask me. Wow, my condition has something in common with someone from 63 BC! Augustus's grandson, Emperor Claudius, and nephew, Britannicus, suffered from some variation of allergies. Even back then, there was a family history of eczema and other allergic conditions.

 

[Texashiker]

more people = more genetic variances

I do not think size of the population plays a factor, but rather how portable the population is.

Up until recent history most people lived their lives within a few miles of where they were born.

Today, people travel hundreds, if not thousands of miles, go to college, go to the military, meet someone, get married, have kids,,,.

 

[Moonbeam]

One of the most powerful emotional reactions people can have is revulsion and disgust at anything that suggests germ infection. We withdraw and cover our mouths and wrinkle up our noses to prevent infection. This is a profoundly important part of conservative morality, disgust at the other, and the demonization they do to others, to make them seem infected. This is how our innate fear of contamination can be used to destroy the nation. Fear fear fear. It's something that conservatives are particularly obsessed about. Liberals have rosy attitudes and faith in science with all the awareness that it's a two edged sword.

Rest assured however, that when we finally realize that the earth is 6000 years old and evolution is a fraud, the germs will stop evolving new defensed against our cures because we won't have any to provide. They we can all die quite naturally from this or that infection, as the Bible intended, relying on the power of faith to cure.

We evolve culturally and intellectually, or we die.

 

[zinfamous]

kinda, sorta, yea...TH is hitting on a real problem with our current culture of hyper-sterilization.

and this can't be a vaccine issue--we are primarily talking about bacterial immunity and allergens.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The problem isn't treating diseases so much as hypersanitization, removing all exposure. That's a problem.

 

[Texashiker]

kinda, sorta, yea...TH is hitting on a real problem with our current culture of hyper-sterilization.

and this can't be a vaccine issue--we are primarily talking about bacterial immunity and allergens.

Thank you.

A couple of years ago my wife and I were at a shopping mall. While we were at the mall we decided to drop by the eatery. There was a chinese place that gave you a mountain of food. My wife and I would order one plate and share it.

While we were eating, my wife and I saw this lady using these plastic covers for her child. The mom put a plastic cover of the seat, over the table, wiped the childs hands down with hand sanitizer, put a huge bib on the kid,,,,. It looked like the baby was going into surgery rather then eating. This kid was maybe 3 years old?

I was like "holy crap, really?" My mom brought me over to play with sick kids.

In todays urban settings there is little chance of a kid getting to swim in a bayou, or in a creek, or in a river, or even play in knee deep mud.

Whatever happened to the good ole days of using a bean-bag as a boat in the ditch?

 

[zinfamous]

While we were eating, my wife and I saw this lady using these plastic covers for her child. The mom put a plastic cover of the seat, over the table, wiped the childs hands down with hand sanitizer, put a huge bib on the kid,,,,. It looked like the baby was going into surgery rather then eating. This kid was maybe 3 years old?

see, that's when you walk by and "accidentally" sneeze all over the kid and their table. apologize profusely, but keep walking. :whiste:

 

[Anarchist420]

The vaccines have done more bad than good.

 

[desy]

No vaccines are fine, its over presciption of antibiotics for people who have colds, half used presciptions create the superbugs that used to die w the old medicines but create survivors now antibiotic resistant.
We also overdo it with antibacterial soaps and sanitizers cause we need all those various bacteria and don't just kill the bad ones.

 

[Paul98]

Yep, just like vaccines we need to get our immune system used to these verity of things that are out there. Letting your kid play in dirt, having pets, not constantly cleaning and sanitizing will make sure they have a strong immune system. It will help them in the long run.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

One of the most powerful emotional reactions people can have is revulsion and disgust at anything that suggests germ infection. We withdraw and cover our mouths and wrinkle up our noses to prevent infection. This is a profoundly important part of conservative morality, disgust at the other, and the demonization they do to others, to make them seem infected. This is how our innate fear of contamination can be used to destroy the nation. Fear fear fear. It's something that conservatives are particularly obsessed about. Liberals have rosy attitudes and faith in science with all the awareness that it's a two edged sword.

Rest assured however, that when we finally realize that the earth is 6000 years old and evolution is a fraud, the germs will stop evolving new defensed against our cures because we won't have any to provide. They we can all die quite naturally from this or that infection, as the Bible intended, relying on the power of faith to cure.

We evolve culturally and intellectually, or we die.

No, I think people just don't like being sick. I've spent a lot of time sick for someone my age, and when I'm around someone who is coughing and sneezing my immediate reaction is not "Oh boy, a chance for my immune system to practice!" it's "Jesus, get away from me, I don't want to spend the next week unable to leave my bed or my toilet." Which is not to say that I use disinfectant on everything or go out of my way to avoid germs, but I think it's a normal reaction to not want to interact with people who are spewing phlegm from all orifices.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yep, just like vaccines we need to get our immune system used to these verity of things that are out there. Letting your kid play in dirt, having pets, not constantly cleaning and sanitizing will make sure they have a strong immune system. It will help them in the long run.

Go play in the mud.

Ok, scientifically validated things to do help your children avoid allergies.

Get a dog and let it play outside. Have your kids do likewise. Here's a huge one and little known. Buy unprocessed honey from a local beekeeper. It should NOT be heat treated or put through a high filtration filter. Filtration sufficient to get the bee crap and other things out, but the body reacts to the pollen much like it would with shots and tends to provide better immune response to local allergens.

 

[Howard]

Go play in the mud.

Ok, scientifically validated things to do help your children avoid allergies.

Get a dog and let it play outside. Have your kids do likewise. Here's a huge one and little known. Buy unprocessed honey from a local beekeeper. It should NOT be heat treated or put through a high filtration filter. Filtration sufficient to get the bee crap and other things out, but the body reacts to the pollen much like it would with shots and tends to provide better immune response to local allergens.

Doesn't that kill babies?

 

[Moonbeam]

No, I think people just don't like being sick. I've spent a lot of time sick for someone my age, and when I'm around someone who is coughing and sneezing my immediate reaction is not "Oh boy, a chance for my immune system to practice!" it's "Jesus, get away from me, I don't want to spend the next week unable to leave my bed or my toilet." Which is not to say that I use disinfectant on everything or go out of my way to avoid germs, but I think it's a normal reaction to not want to interact with people who are spewing phlegm from all orifices.

No, what I described is a universal instinctive reaction. It has nothing to do with thinking. If people could think their way out of instinct we could all enjoy a meal of bugs. You can't control the reaction with thinking, but you CAN control believing you are reacting logically and you don't need to demonize people you oppose as being infected with something contagious.

This instinctive reaction gets converted into all sorts of things that are irrational, like there's a problem with pigs if you eat them. There's nothing evil about eating port if you know the real threat and manage it with intelligence and knowledge. Purity laws are typical of conservative thinking, folk who can't separate their instinctive reactions from rational thinking.

 

[kami333]

Doesn't that kill babies?

Raw (unpastuerized) honey can cause botulism in infants if there are spores in it but it's fairly rare, rare enough that we aren't going to wipe out the human race if we did give babies raw honey but common enough that pediatricians recommend against it.

 

[Texashiker]

The vaccines have done more bad than good.

I have to respectfully disagree.


Its like parents spraying their kids down with deet or other insect repellant so the kids do not get bit by various bugs.

Kid grows up, gets stung by a bee, falls over dead.

 

[IGBT]

junk food and fast food joints have probably done more damage then anything else.