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Has Osama Bin Ladin won the war on Terror?

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ranmaniac

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,940
0
76
Considering the triad making up the national security of the US, the nation is losing.

1) Economic security: Over 9 trillion dollars debt, a weak dollar, high energy prices, housing market imploding etc.

2) Military: War in Iraq is sapping the military, National Guard is all but broken..

3) Moral standing: We've gone from being one of the most respected and revered nations to one of the most reviled and hated. This was our real source of national security, and it will take some time to repair the damage the Bush administration has done to international relations. Not to mention turning Iraq into a terrorist state, the very thing that Bush was supposed to fight, he has actually helped create.


Who benefitted from 9/11?

Iraq, Afghanistan, the Islamic world in general?

or

Military Industrial Complex, Neocons, big oil?

 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

In the past 6 years we have spent $14 trillion perhaps $900 billion of which has gone to the war on terror ($150 billion a year)

Perhaps we should look at the 93% of spending that has not gone to the war on terror before we declare that the war has bankrupted our country.
I'm curious about where your figures come from. I can assume that the $14T is from the sum of the annual budgets over the last 6/yrs.

But where is this $900B from?

Is that solely from Iraq/Afghanistan funding bills? If so, did you feel that the whole DoHS creation was not in response to 9/11? What about the TSA taking over airport screenings/security? What about the increased budgets to the CIA/FBI/NSA and other alphabet soup agencies? What about the spikes in the cost of oil and the associated costs that go along with that?

There are a ton of ancillary costs that I don't think that you are including in this low-ball total that could be attributed to OBL/AQ.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,847
49
91
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,978
3,758
126
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,847
49
91
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
Truth lasts only as long as there are minds willing to accept them and pass them further. The will of god guides only those who help themselves by setting aside their fears, prejudices and pettiness.

A pity this world lacks both. The will of god is indeed the dawn of liberty and freedom, but remember, just before the glorious sunrise, there is the darkness of the night.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,847
49
91
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Don't worry, we will find something or other to bow to. ;)

 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,064
0
0
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Don't worry, we will find something or other to bow to. ;)
:(
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,214
2
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.
It does not vanish to nothing. Your love and hate lives on in humanity and all we can hope is that our lives and those we've touched have a positive impact in general.

Some people don't need a god to feel a validation in their lives or the threat of an ominous supreme being meeting out justice once we die as a means to control our behavior in this world. Others, apparently, do. Such is life.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,841
22,017
136
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.
Why would life have to have a purpose in order to make it worth living? Live to enjoy yourself. I'm nearly certain there is no god, but I don't really care. (can't be 100% certain afterall... no proving a negative today!)
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.
It does not vanish to nothing. Your love and hate lives on in humanity and all we can hope is that our lives and those we've touched have a positive impact in general.

Some people don't need a god to feel a validation in their lives or the threat of an ominous supreme being meeting out justice once we die as a means to control our behavior in this world. Others, apparently, do. Such is life.
Very well said TLC.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,978
3,758
126
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.
It does not vanish to nothing. Your love and hate lives on in humanity and all we can hope is that our lives and those we've touched have a positive impact in general.

Some people don't need a god to feel a validation in their lives or the threat of an ominous supreme being meeting out justice once we die as a means to control our behavior in this world. Others, apparently, do. Such is life.
Very well said TLC.
So did you get the answer to your question?
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Braznor
What are you all so surprised about? This is the way these people have always won.
Remember, you may have money and technology, but what they have is an invincible tradition, a relentless ideology that keeps turning the gears of never ending war always in their favor.

Someday your money and guns may disappear, but that fire in their hearts will remain unquenched, making them come for you. It's been that way since forever.
The only thing that lasts forever is the truth. Nothing can stand before the Will of God. Is the will of God freedom and justice or is it terror. And don't forget to ask, who is who.
And if there is no God?
Then what are you bothering for? All the love and hate in your life will vanish to nothing when you die, the memories of your life with loved ones moving in time to just another person in the timeline of meaninglessness, you may as well shoot your brains out right now, what's the point otherwise? If you are nothing but cheap chemicals luckily thrown together in a watery husk, nothing has meaning and your only God is an evolved desire to live on some instinctive level like that of an ant trying to scurry away from a magnifying glass.
It does not vanish to nothing. Your love and hate lives on in humanity and all we can hope is that our lives and those we've touched have a positive impact in general.

Some people don't need a god to feel a validation in their lives or the threat of an ominous supreme being meeting out justice once we die as a means to control our behavior in this world. Others, apparently, do. Such is life.
Very well said TLC.
So did you get the answer to your question?
I got TLC's which I thought was a well reasoned response to Skoorb's reply. Still waiting on your answer however. :)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,978
3,758
126
I got TLC's which I thought was a well reasoned response to Skoorb's reply. Still waiting on your answer however.
=========
The will of God is what is and what will be. No belief in God is needed. A rose bud opens into a rose, the acorn becomes an oak, and the human heart awakens and the Lover and the Beloved are one. The will of God is the flow of Being, the truth, the light, the glory, the source and destiny, the water of your life.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,268
4
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

In the past 6 years we have spent $14 trillion perhaps $900 billion of which has gone to the war on terror ($150 billion a year)

Perhaps we should look at the 93% of spending that has not gone to the war on terror before we declare that the war has bankrupted our country.
I'm curious about where your figures come from. I can assume that the $14T is from the sum of the annual budgets over the last 6/yrs.

But where is this $900B from?

Is that solely from Iraq/Afghanistan funding bills? If so, did you feel that the whole DoHS creation was not in response to 9/11? What about the TSA taking over airport screenings/security? What about the increased budgets to the CIA/FBI/NSA and other alphabet soup agencies? What about the spikes in the cost of oil and the associated costs that go along with that?

There are a ton of ancillary costs that I don't think that you are including in this low-ball total that could be attributed to OBL/AQ.
My figure is a total guess, a high one at that, and is based on the $150 or so billion the DoD asks for every year.

A lot of the other stuff you mentioned would have happened without the Iraq or Afghanistan wars.

Or are you suggesting that after 9-11 we should have done nothing and just went about our marry way?
 

SoundTheSurrender

Diamond Member
Mar 13, 2005
3,126
0
0
No progress in Iraq, our dollar is devaluing, people are dying, we are falling into a recession. The terrorists don't even have to fight us, they just have to fight us enough to make sure America stays over there.

 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
56,742
5,110
126
Osama Bin Forgotten won the war on terror the day Georgie formed the Dept. of Homeland Security and together with the Congress, shoved the Patriot Act up the asses of the American people. As soon as we started changing things in the name of apparent (not real ) safety, he won. Even if the terrorists dissolved tomorrow and there was never another terror attack...he won...if only because he caused enough people to get scared that it allowed the NeoCons to implement policies that weren't good for the American people over the long run. All the Patriot Act (and gawd, let's not forget the pretty colored threat alert indicators!) ever accomplished was to give people enough false sense of security that they'd get back on airplanes again. Don't forget how many times since then inspectors have still managed to sneak contraband including weapons on board airliners since the big shake-up in 2001.

While we MAY eventually win the war in the middle east, I really don't believe we'll ever actually win (and finally end) the war on terror.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,650
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

In the past 6 years we have spent $14 trillion perhaps $900 billion of which has gone to the war on terror ($150 billion a year)

Perhaps we should look at the 93% of spending that has not gone to the war on terror before we declare that the war has bankrupted our country.
I'm curious about where your figures come from. I can assume that the $14T is from the sum of the annual budgets over the last 6/yrs.

But where is this $900B from?

Is that solely from Iraq/Afghanistan funding bills? If so, did you feel that the whole DoHS creation was not in response to 9/11? What about the TSA taking over airport screenings/security? What about the increased budgets to the CIA/FBI/NSA and other alphabet soup agencies? What about the spikes in the cost of oil and the associated costs that go along with that?

There are a ton of ancillary costs that I don't think that you are including in this low-ball total that could be attributed to OBL/AQ.
My figure is a total guess, a high one at that, and is based on the $150 or so billion the DoD asks for every year.

A lot of the other stuff you mentioned would have happened without the Iraq or Afghanistan wars.

Or are you suggesting that after 9-11 we should have done nothing and just went about our marry way?
I'm definitely not saying that nothing was needed. But $900B is low-balling and not "a high one at that" type of guess.

"Anniversary" edition article on the war

At the outset of the Iraq war, the Bush administration predicted that it would cost $50 billion to $60 billion to oust Saddam Hussein, restore order and install a new government.

Five years in, the Pentagon tags the cost of the Iraq war at roughly $600 billion and counting. Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize-winning economist and critic of the war, pegs the long-term cost at more than $4 trillion. The Congressional Budget Office and other analysts say that $1 trillion to $2 trillion is more realistic, depending on troop levels and on how long the American occupation continues.
DoHS Budget

The total FY 2009 budget request for the Department of Homeland Security is $50.5 billion in funding; a 7 percent increase over the FY 2008 enacted level excluding emergency funding. The Department?s FY 2009 gross discretionary budget request is $40.7 billion, an increase of 8 percent over the FY 2008 enacted level excluding emergency funding.
 

Lt 486

Banned
Mar 17, 2008
36
0
0
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
No progress in Iraq, our dollar is devaluing, people are dying, we are falling into a recession. The terrorists don't even have to fight us, they just have to fight us enough to make sure America stays over there.
So? Haliburton profits are up, thats what is important to shareholders.
 

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