I know he is the 'prime suspect' and all, but has it ever been confirmed ? If not, don't you think we should wait before bombing him back into the stone age ?
Has it been confirmed that Bin Laden was behind the attacks ?
- Thread starter venk
- Start date
does nothing? if he was just another thug then maybe yeah. but there are now possibilities he may have bio/chem weapons as well as nukes. i rather be on the safe side and assume he has access to these weapons than be sorry. many people laugh it off but these are the same close-minded people who didn't think what happened on 9/11 could happen over here. but guess what? anything is a possibility!
Is there any HARD evidence against bin Laden in this case? I mean, everybody says that he did it (myself included), but is there any real evidence against him, or is it just a gut-feeling?
- Oct 30, 2000
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When there is hard evidence, the US gov will present it to the world and then execute strikes against the responsible parties and sponsors.
Until the evidence is presented, no action will be taken.
Until the evidence is presented, no action will be taken.
GasX
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 29,033
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The problem lies in the way Bin Laden is organized. It is not set-up in a hierchial structure like the Mafia. He doesn't give orders to be followed. Rather there are a bunch of independant cells that look to him for guidance. If they come up with a plan, they essentially "apply" for support from him. It is unlikely that there will be a document that is signed by him that orders the attack. What will be presented is an abundance of circumstantial evidence that he was directly invoved in the attack.
Noone said it would be easy or cut and dried....
Noone said it would be easy or cut and dried....
i'm not sure what hoeboy's point is... it sounds like what he's saying is that killing bin laden will solve this problem.. i'm not sure why it seems that everyone is missing crucial points to this whole story, but the fact is, as mwilding stated, that the terrorist cells are spread out all over the world. they have chemical weapons. they have bioweapons. they are not afraid to use them. they are not afraid to die when they use them. the point here is that as soon as we kill bin laden (whether it's proven that he did this or not), terrorists are going to pour out of their holes all over the world, like an overturned barrel of apples... and they have the potential to kill MILLIONS of civilians. imagine how easy it would be for a terrorist to walk down broadway in new york city, with a backpack on his back, and inside that backpack is an open canister containing anthrax... or a cropdusting plane dropping anthrax over los angeles... we're talking about the potential for MILLIONS of deaths in less than a week. the point is, any one individual terrorist can achieve this. we know there are many more than just one. we know they are here. we know they are in well over 50 countries worldwide. we know it is impossible to find them all before they have a chance to carry out these kinds of plans. haven't you all been watching the news? practically every government official who is interviewed now is asked about the possibility of such attacks (in case you think this is all paranoid delusion and science fiction), their answers, every single one of them, proves that the government is VERY worried about this possibility. in fact, they don't seem to consider this a possibility. many consider it a likely event.
as much as i'm outraged by recent events, i think we need to look very carefully at what an eye-for-an-eye response will bring about. we're talking about the potential for millions of deaths on american soil.
[something i'd like to add in response to hoeboy's statement... he says he'd rather assume bin laden has chemical and bioweapons, and eliminate him now... do you really think bin laden has chemical weapons on him...? like, in the drawer in his desk or something...? hell no... his soldiers have those weapons man... his soldiers who are already here, and have been here, for years... you kill him, they use the weapons... think about it, before bloodlust kills entire generations of people...]
-syf3r.
as much as i'm outraged by recent events, i think we need to look very carefully at what an eye-for-an-eye response will bring about. we're talking about the potential for millions of deaths on american soil.
[something i'd like to add in response to hoeboy's statement... he says he'd rather assume bin laden has chemical and bioweapons, and eliminate him now... do you really think bin laden has chemical weapons on him...? like, in the drawer in his desk or something...? hell no... his soldiers have those weapons man... his soldiers who are already here, and have been here, for years... you kill him, they use the weapons... think about it, before bloodlust kills entire generations of people...]
-syf3r.
bah, even if he is behind it all, killing him and his peons does nothing
And your solution is just to ignore him? We know 100% that ignoring him will result in more attacks... you're only SPECULATING that killing him with do nothing.
And your solution is just to ignore him? We know 100% that ignoring him will result in more attacks... you're only SPECULATING that killing him with do nothing.
Why would terrorists go through all the trouble of attending flight school, buying airline tickets, and coordinating Tuesday's attack, killing 19 of their own, when they could MUCH MORE EASILY have released a backpack full of Anthrax in the middle of a major city and killed millions?
<< Why would terrorists go through all the trouble of attending flight school, buying airline tickets, and coordinating Tuesday's attack, killing 19 of their own, when they could MUCH MORE EASILY have released a backpack full of Anthrax in the middle of a major city and killed millions? >>
It is speculated that the terrorists weren't going for body count. They were trying to attack our way of life.
WTC: Finance
Pentagon: Military
Capital building or white house(both were suspected targets): Government
- Oct 30, 2000
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<< Why would terrorists go through all the trouble of attending flight school, buying airline tickets, and coordinating Tuesday's attack, killing 19 of their own, when they could MUCH MORE EASILY have released a backpack full of Anthrax in the middle of a major city and killed millions? >>
Visual Impact and to show vulnerabilty of the US government/military
Visual Impact and to show vulnerabilty of the US government/military
woah.. i said nothing at all about ignoring him... in fact, we need to pay attention to him. he has the money and the secrecy and the supporters to keep driving his point home again and again... if you honestly do doubt what i wrote earlier about the possibility/likelihood of a chem/bio attack, you need to go over your recent history of the middle east. it's well-known that the majority of those countries have been and are experimenting with chem/bio weapons. hell, our soldiers were already exposed to them in desert storm, or did you think that was paranoia at the time as well? even more important is the fact that pakistan has achieved nuclear weaponry. to you (moralpanic and mindsink) it must have been just a teeny little coincidence that pakistan was pretty much the first country we began courting when talk of war began to be thrown around? or maybe you didn't even notice at all. pakistan has nuclear weaponry and a government that is not entirely favored by the populace. what does that mean for us if their government falls? i'm sure you've seen the news that afghanistan is ready to strike pakistan should they really help us... those dots are easy to connect...
what tweakmm and eaglekeeper said about shock value is true. a nation is galvanized. a nation is ready to draw blood from a hidden, fanatical enemy. what will happen when you draw blood from them and even if you kill usama bin laden? his supporters are dug in, worldwide. they have heavy funding. they have training. they're not at all scared to die. in fact, they want to.
[edit: i should also mention that we (the cia) trained bin laden when he used to be on our side against the soviet union in afganistan. yes it can be argued whether or not he was on our side or whether we were conveniently using him to our ends, but the point is the same, isn't it? we trained him. he knows how to infiltrate, subvert...]
it's true that the trade center attacks were a strike against our way of life... after all, what did they strike? they struck the center of our financial being. today's activity in the markets shows they succeeded. and was it just our economy? no, it was the whole world... to some extent they took out our communications... the infrastructure in new york city (i'm not saying it is destroyed. i'm saying it has been damaged, adding to the problems with the economy for the obvious reason that nyc is the main trading center for the entire nation...). what else did they hit? they hit the pentagon... an obvious and flagrant act of war...
[edit: i should also mention that it's widely believed that the white house, and not the pentagon, was the first choice. the pilot/hijacker simply overshot the white house and the pentagon was the next best choice... so while the pentagon makes it appear more like an act of war, having destroyed the white house would have been perceived, just as they would have wanted, as an attempt to kill our president. take your pick. either way, this was just one means of delivery, turning a plane into a manned cruise-missile. to think the next attack will come in the same form is very shortsighted. blind even. they don't think the way we do. guerilla warfare is all about using what you have in any way you can to achieve your goal with most effect.]
and what else did they hit? they hit the industry which unwittingly aided them in their attack.. the airlines... nobody wants to fly... airlines are already folding, not just in america but in other nations as well. the government will be forced to bail them out and even then it isn't by any means certain that the airlines will survive at all. if they do they will be radically different... and what else is going on in our country at thie time all this is happening... california, in case everyone has forgotten, is still pretty much out of power... there are still massive, i mean massive, wildfires burning in the west... think it's just a tiny coincidence they attacked when they did...?
so when you deny the very idea that a chem/bio weapon is in the arsenal of a fanatical, wanting-to-die enemy which is already entrenched within our walls, following a leader who has declared holy war on us, and already taken their first strike on a scale we haven't seen since pearl harbor... i think you are sadly in need of a review of all the facts... if you think that what we saw on tuesday was them shooting their whole load, i think you're wrong... that was only 19 of them... the potential for future attacks is definitely still here. and the methods in which those attacks may come don't require 19 people to pull them off... they can be done by individuals... heavily funded, completely blended-in or hidden, willing to die individuals... think about it a bit, before you just brush it off.
syf3r.
what tweakmm and eaglekeeper said about shock value is true. a nation is galvanized. a nation is ready to draw blood from a hidden, fanatical enemy. what will happen when you draw blood from them and even if you kill usama bin laden? his supporters are dug in, worldwide. they have heavy funding. they have training. they're not at all scared to die. in fact, they want to.
[edit: i should also mention that we (the cia) trained bin laden when he used to be on our side against the soviet union in afganistan. yes it can be argued whether or not he was on our side or whether we were conveniently using him to our ends, but the point is the same, isn't it? we trained him. he knows how to infiltrate, subvert...]
it's true that the trade center attacks were a strike against our way of life... after all, what did they strike? they struck the center of our financial being. today's activity in the markets shows they succeeded. and was it just our economy? no, it was the whole world... to some extent they took out our communications... the infrastructure in new york city (i'm not saying it is destroyed. i'm saying it has been damaged, adding to the problems with the economy for the obvious reason that nyc is the main trading center for the entire nation...). what else did they hit? they hit the pentagon... an obvious and flagrant act of war...
[edit: i should also mention that it's widely believed that the white house, and not the pentagon, was the first choice. the pilot/hijacker simply overshot the white house and the pentagon was the next best choice... so while the pentagon makes it appear more like an act of war, having destroyed the white house would have been perceived, just as they would have wanted, as an attempt to kill our president. take your pick. either way, this was just one means of delivery, turning a plane into a manned cruise-missile. to think the next attack will come in the same form is very shortsighted. blind even. they don't think the way we do. guerilla warfare is all about using what you have in any way you can to achieve your goal with most effect.]
and what else did they hit? they hit the industry which unwittingly aided them in their attack.. the airlines... nobody wants to fly... airlines are already folding, not just in america but in other nations as well. the government will be forced to bail them out and even then it isn't by any means certain that the airlines will survive at all. if they do they will be radically different... and what else is going on in our country at thie time all this is happening... california, in case everyone has forgotten, is still pretty much out of power... there are still massive, i mean massive, wildfires burning in the west... think it's just a tiny coincidence they attacked when they did...?
so when you deny the very idea that a chem/bio weapon is in the arsenal of a fanatical, wanting-to-die enemy which is already entrenched within our walls, following a leader who has declared holy war on us, and already taken their first strike on a scale we haven't seen since pearl harbor... i think you are sadly in need of a review of all the facts... if you think that what we saw on tuesday was them shooting their whole load, i think you're wrong... that was only 19 of them... the potential for future attacks is definitely still here. and the methods in which those attacks may come don't require 19 people to pull them off... they can be done by individuals... heavily funded, completely blended-in or hidden, willing to die individuals... think about it a bit, before you just brush it off.
syf3r.
rather than adding more and more edits, i've just put in a whole additional response...
by attacking the airlines, he attacked not only us, again, but the world. the u.s. is the main supplier of the world's airliners. airlines are folding worldwide. so in this way, did bin laden win? yes, because nobody wants to fly. air traffic is way down (don't have current percentage available, but it's something like off by 35% or more..) airlines are folding. airline workers are being laid off. and the world has to change the way it lives, because nobody wants to fly. we need to re-evaluate the way we travel... need to make is safer... does that mean giving up some rights...? willingly even?
what about all of those companies whose workforces have been decimated by the attacks? many of those companies won't survive. certainly the ones that do will be hindered for some time to come. and they weren't only american companies located there... it was, after all, the *world* trade center... and look at the economy around the world in the last few days..
i wonder if you've heard that there are worldwide investigations going on right now regarding the fact that someone made a pile of money on this attack. there are widespread reports of short-trading on the markets, before the attack, in insurance and re-insurance stocks... perhaps he just added to his funding, because they'll never track down all those trades... if it wasn't him, it sure was someone, because the trades took place, so someone knew it was going to happen...
another interesting thing is that some of the major computer infrastructure organisations and monitors are causing a lot of chatter. much discussion about an anticipated cyberattack and how to manage that possibility. this comes from sans, in case anyone knows who they are.
and hey, this is after all just my thoughts on the whole thing... revenge is a common reaction and i'm not saying i don't feel it. i'm considering each and every very possible eventuality, and what they mean to our land and to us, and our children, and to our grandchildren, because the *fact* is that there are dangerous, wanting-to-die people out there with lots of money for dangerous weapons, and getting to use them during this holy war, killing as many american civilians as possible, gets them into heaven...
-syf3r.
by attacking the airlines, he attacked not only us, again, but the world. the u.s. is the main supplier of the world's airliners. airlines are folding worldwide. so in this way, did bin laden win? yes, because nobody wants to fly. air traffic is way down (don't have current percentage available, but it's something like off by 35% or more..) airlines are folding. airline workers are being laid off. and the world has to change the way it lives, because nobody wants to fly. we need to re-evaluate the way we travel... need to make is safer... does that mean giving up some rights...? willingly even?
what about all of those companies whose workforces have been decimated by the attacks? many of those companies won't survive. certainly the ones that do will be hindered for some time to come. and they weren't only american companies located there... it was, after all, the *world* trade center... and look at the economy around the world in the last few days..
i wonder if you've heard that there are worldwide investigations going on right now regarding the fact that someone made a pile of money on this attack. there are widespread reports of short-trading on the markets, before the attack, in insurance and re-insurance stocks... perhaps he just added to his funding, because they'll never track down all those trades... if it wasn't him, it sure was someone, because the trades took place, so someone knew it was going to happen...
another interesting thing is that some of the major computer infrastructure organisations and monitors are causing a lot of chatter. much discussion about an anticipated cyberattack and how to manage that possibility. this comes from sans, in case anyone knows who they are.
and hey, this is after all just my thoughts on the whole thing... revenge is a common reaction and i'm not saying i don't feel it. i'm considering each and every very possible eventuality, and what they mean to our land and to us, and our children, and to our grandchildren, because the *fact* is that there are dangerous, wanting-to-die people out there with lots of money for dangerous weapons, and getting to use them during this holy war, killing as many american civilians as possible, gets them into heaven...
-syf3r.
A lot of these "it won't do any good" assertions are based on the fallacious assumption that the response is a one time action, and that once the perpetrators of this single attack are brought to justice, we are done. This is not the case.
President Bush has repeatedly stated that this will be a long, protracted and worldwide fight against terrorism - all terrorism. Rooting out and punishing those responsible for this one act is only the beginning.
Russ, NCNE
President Bush has repeatedly stated that this will be a long, protracted and worldwide fight against terrorism - all terrorism. Rooting out and punishing those responsible for this one act is only the beginning.
Russ, NCNE
umm.. yes.. the concept of "killing bin laden won't solve anything" has been the point of this entire thread... when i asked if anyone wanted to continue this thread, i meant more like contributing something *new* to it...
syf3r.
syf3r.
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