Has Israel lost?

[Zebo]

No matter what side you on I think this is an important question.

Seems to me if your going to start a military offensive into the westbank you finish the job. This includes occupation, registration of all it's citizens and perhaps even setting up a temporary police force in the whole area at a minimun. I can't see anything positive comming out of thier withdraw other than increased terrorist attacks and more enlistees from muslim fringe groups in the region.

International opinion is already against them so I think it would be purdent to finish the job by either a) expulsion of all anti-semites or b) permanent occupation as a police state.

I know little about this conflict and maybe I'm way off-base but stategically they have lost IMO.

 

[Amused]

Israel has won every battle thrust upon it by Arab aggressors. However, they seem to be losing, or have already lost the propaganda war.

 

[Czar]

Its a war that is impossible to win unless Israel pulls back from Palestinian land.

 

[Amused]

<< Its a war that is impossible to win unless Israel pulls back from Palestinian land. >>



Czar, Czar, Czar. You know better. The Israeli's have offered them everything, and were told to go fly a kite. Pulling back from so-called "Palestinian land" will do nothing. The sole reason for this whole war is the very existence of Israel.

 

[XZeroII]

Why would Isreal pull back? They've been attacked for years and years, and now that they are sick of it and want to put an end to it, the "international community" thinks it's wrong. Why is it ok for other nations to try and invade Isreal, but it's not ok for Isreal to try and invade other nations? If someone were trying for years to break into my home and kill me, I think I would eventually find out where they live and try to return the favor.

 

[tsunek]

because every israeli escalation and retaliation has only increased terrorism and the support for terrorism in the west bank to the point where military action can not stop it

 

[ElFenix]

<< a) expulsion of all anti-semites >>

there aren't very many of those in israel... arabs are semitic too...



<< b) permanent occupation as a police state. >>

the US wouldn't stand for that, and we're one of the few friends israel has. even though they do sell our weapons tech to the chinese.

 

[Czar]

<<

<< Its a war that is impossible to win unless Israel pulls back from Palestinian land. >>



Czar, Czar, Czar. You know better. The Israeli's have offered them everything, and were told to go fly a kite. Pulling back from so-called "Palestinian land" will do nothing. The sole reason for this whole war is the very existence of Israel. >>


you also should know better, they didnt offer them everything, under the Camp David proposal Palestine wouldnt have anything, it would even have less than they have now.

 

[MrPALCO]

Israel has title to the land. The Palestinians are guests in the land and must act as such, or be thrown out.

 

[spanky]

how do u figure they lost? based on what i have seen/heard/read, they went in to root out some terrorist. apparently, they did, and did some butt kickings on the side. i wouldn't say they won, but i seriously doubt they "lost".

 

[Czar]

<< Israel has title to the land. The Palestinians are guests in the land and must act as such, or be thrown out. >>

 

[Amused]

<<

<<

<< Its a war that is impossible to win unless Israel pulls back from Palestinian land. >>



Czar, Czar, Czar. You know better. The Israeli's have offered them everything, and were told to go fly a kite. Pulling back from so-called "Palestinian land" will do nothing. The sole reason for this whole war is the very existence of Israel. >>


you also should know better, they didnt offer them everything, under the Camp David proposal Palestine wouldnt have anything, it would even have less than they have now. >>



Um, are you high? They would, with Clinton's additional "bridging" proposal, have complete control of the West Bank and Gaza strip, with joint administration of Jerusalem. This is the offer Arafat walked away from without even giving a counter offer.

Czar, stop reading pro Arab news for your information.

The offer was more than they deserve after waging a 50+ year war and terrorism campaign against Israel. It is painfully obvious the only way for peace is deportations of non-Israeli citizens and the closing of borders. Even IF Israel pulled completely back, the suicidal homicide bombings would not stop.

 

[etech]

Czar,
"you also should know better, they didnt offer them everything, under the Camp David proposal Palestine wouldnt have anything, it would even have less than they have now."

I have to go into work now and can't do the reseach to disprove it myself so I would like you to prove that statement. I don't believe it is true.

 

[MrPALCO]

Jerusalem has been made the Capital of all the Nations of the Earth. That is one of the reasons the Outlaw and his followers, gnash their teeth against the invincible position of Israel.

 

[Czar]

<< Czar,
"you also should know better, they didnt offer them everything, under the Camp David proposal Palestine wouldnt have anything, it would even have less than they have now."

I have to go into work now and can't do the reseach to disprove it myself so I would like you to prove that statement. I don't believe it is true. >>


allrighty
http://www.orienthouse.org/dept/images/Maps/ecartediplo.eng.pdf
a map of the proposed palestinian state.... not exactly a good picture for the palestinians

and something I found


<< Why did the Palestinians reject the Camp David Peace Proposal?
For a true and lasting peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, there must be two viable and independent states living as equal neighbors. Israel's Camp David proposal, which was never set forth in writing, denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. The Camp David proposal also denied Palestinians control over their own borders, airspace and water resources while legitimizing and expanding illegal Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory. Israel's Camp David proposal presented a 're-packaging' of military occupation, not an end to military occupation. >>




have fun at work

 

[Czar]

AmusedOne,
tell me,
were the palestinians supposed to gain control of their foreign relations?

 

[Czar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/26/international/26MIDE.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A9673-2001Jul17

enjoy the reading



dont give in to the israeli propaganda

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Czar,
"you also should know better, they didnt offer them everything, under the Camp David proposal Palestine wouldnt have anything, it would even have less than they have now."

I have to go into work now and can't do the reseach to disprove it myself so I would like you to prove that statement. I don't believe it is true. >>


allrighty
http://www.orienthouse.org/dept/images/Maps/ecartediplo.eng.pdf
a map of the proposed palestinian state.... not exactly a good picture for the palestinians

and something I found


<< Why did the Palestinians reject the Camp David Peace Proposal?
For a true and lasting peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, there must be two viable and independent states living as equal neighbors. Israel's Camp David proposal, which was never set forth in writing, denied the Palestinian state viability and independence by dividing Palestinian territory into four separate cantons entirely surrounded, and therefore controlled, by Israel. The Camp David proposal also denied Palestinians control over their own borders, airspace and water resources while legitimizing and expanding illegal Israeli colonies in Palestinian territory. Israel's Camp David proposal presented a 're-packaging' of military occupation, not an end to military occupation. >>

>>



Your quote is from an Arab propaganda piece. I found that too. Nice try.

As for the map, that is the original Israeli proposal. Many more were hashed out and the last offer made to Arafat included Clinton's "bridging" proposal gave them virtually the entire West Bank and Gaza strip and joint Admin of Jerusalem.

What is MORE telling is that Arafat offered NO, NILL, ZIP counter proposal. He simply walked away.

Cazr, REALLY, try researching beyond the first few links in a Google search, OK?

Finally, I leave you with...

"With hearts that believe in Allah's will and predetermination, we have received the news about the martyrdom of the martyr. . . . Al-Hotary, the son of Palestine, whose noble soul ascended to . . . in order to rest in Allah's Kingdom, together with the Prophets, the men of virtue, and the martyrs. The heroic martyrdom operation . . . who turned his body into bombs . . . the model of manhood and sacrifice for the sake of Allah and the homeland." -- Yasser Arafat, in a letter to a dead terrorist's family after the suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv disco, which killed 21 people -- mostly teenagers.

:disgust:

 

[Czar]

map of the sharon proposal

and btw, the revised barak proposal was accepted by the palestinians as a basis for negotiations, it was never presented to the Israeli congress because of the upcoming elections.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Israel should have the right to protect its sovereignty. It needs to have a "Security Zone" to achieve this.

It is surrounded by nations that fundamentally seek to destroy her. Ceding all of the "occupied territory" would be tantamount to forcing Israel to cede their security.

It would be different if Israel were surrounded by a sane, rational, peaceful people. Unfortunately, they are not. The entire region views Israel as a blight on an Arab landscape.

 

[MrPALCO]

Most of the frustration "felt" by those that look at the Middle East is the denial of the position of Israel given by God.
It seems to many that there is no solution to the "problem".
The "problem" is that you seek to remove what God has put in position.
My friends, you can discuss this at length but the decision has already been made.
Jerusalem has been made the Capital of the Earth. It is Israel that has been given the land.

 

[Amused]

<< map of the sharon proposal

and btw, the revised barak proposal was accepted by the palestinians as a basis for negotiations, it was never presented to the Israeli congress because of the upcoming elections. >>



And Czar, you are not listening to me. Both of your maps are original Israeli proposals. They are not what became the final unwritten proposals at Camp David that Arafat rejected without even offering a counter proposal.

BTW, why should the Sharon proposal be anything near the Camp David Proposal? The Palestinains proved what they really are with the latest mindless violence of the Intafada.

Finally, why should Israel NOT have security zones??? Does not 50+ years of Arab aggression warrant at least that?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Jerusalem has been made the Capital of the Earth. It is Israel that has been given the land. >>

Yeah that's like making Newark the Capital of the US. Another rerason to disbelieve Judeo/Chirstian nonsense as complete and utter bullsh!t.

 

[MrPALCO]

Yeah that's like making Newark the Capital of the US. Another rerason to disbelieve Judeo/Chirstian nonsense as complete and utter bullsh!t.


Denying the invincibility of Israel is like insisting that the Earth is flat. The assertion can be made, but the wise look at it as more foolishness.

 

[Amused]

Religious rantings are NOT going to help Israel's cause. All it does is make you sound the the irrational Muslim fanatics who strap bombs their on kids.