Has Biden gone Looney Tunes?

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OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: OrByte
After seeing what Bush did with preemptive war I can see where you would think that

Rest assured that Obama had the intelligence and reasoning to oppose a preemptive war in the past. And he won't make those kinds of mistakes in the future.

Might want to loosen that tinfoil cap of yours in the meantime. Obama has been running against the very reasoning and intelligence that brought us elective wars to begin with.

Biden on Meet the Press in 2002, discussing Saddam Hussein: ?He?s a long term threat and a short term threat to our national security? ?We have no choice but to eliminate the threat. This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world.?

Biden on Meet the Press in 2002: ?Saddam must be dislodged from his weapons or dislodged from power.?

Biden to the Brookings Institution in 2005: ?We can call it quits and withdraw from Iraq. I think that would be a gigantic mistake. Or we can set a deadline for pulling out, which I fear will only encourage our enemies to wait us out ? equally a mistake.?
Im not sure what your point is. It would help if you actually stated something.

But if you are trying to say how Biden thinks Saddam is a bad guy then I agree with you. Alot of people thought Saddam was a bad guy.

The only quote worth discussing imho is the 2005 quote where Biden is making an "either or" scenario which is fallacious (false dilemma) in and of itself.

Why would you make the assumption that Obama would avoid a pre-emptive war when his running mate and his go to guy on foreign policy was clearly in favor of it?
It is an assumption to be sure. I am only basing this point on the numerous times that Obama himself has said he was against the Iraq war from the start because the war in Afghanistan was more important. He has stated numerous times that we dropped the ball when we went into Iraq.

I guess in my head that means that Obama is smart enough not to engage in a war that is unnecessary. Now, you can say that Biden favored war, and that is fine and dandy. But Biden isn't running for President Obama is. Biden would have to convince Obama. And that is exactly the type of leadership I want running this country. I want Obama to hear all sides of an issue, and I want him to rely on his judgement and intelligence to form a plan of action.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Vic
Too much tinfoil in this thread. There is currently a GLOBAL economic crisis underway. The US caught a cold and the rest of the world caught pneumonia. Historically, global economic crises lead to war. Biden is warning supporters of that possibility, based upon his extensive knowledge of foreign policy. And while internet tinfoil-wearers freak out over imagined nuances of his words, Biden got a million dollar haul from a room full of Seattle whales.

Perhaps we should wait out our cold, and let the other countries die of pneumonia rather than us going over there and catching it.

The world is no longer that isolated. It will never be isolated like that again. What part of Global Economy do you not understand?

I'd rather rebuild our economy than rebuild our cities.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Whatever would be on my list, rest assured, going into Iraq wouldn't have been on it.

How many more Americans would need to have been killed before you would believe that defensive actions would need to take place such as those performed during that time? I realize that is quite the cookie cutter question, but really try to think about it for a moment. Where is the line truly drawn for you before you would agree that overseas defensive military action is necessary for the greater good of this country and our allies?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Vic
Too much tinfoil in this thread. There is currently a GLOBAL economic crisis underway. The US caught a cold and the rest of the world caught pneumonia. Historically, global economic crises lead to war. Biden is warning supporters of that possibility, based upon his extensive knowledge of foreign policy. And while internet tinfoil-wearers freak out over imagined nuances of his words, Biden got a million dollar haul from a room full of Seattle whales.

Perhaps we should wait out our cold, and let the other countries die of pneumonia rather than us going over there and catching it.

The world is no longer that isolated. It will never be isolated like that again. What part of Global Economy do you not understand?

I'd rather rebuild our economy than rebuild our cities.

I wish we could do that in such an isolated manner like you suggest, but unfortunately the world just isn't that isolated anymore and it never will be. We have to take it for what it is and approach this problem exactly how it is defined. We cannot just pretend that the global economy is any less global than what it actually is and we cannot afford to lose sight of anything that influences it either. Many of these influences are not direct.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
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Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
The tin foil hat wearers are the ones who believe that Obama is the fix for all their problems. That he is some how not the normal politician. :laugh:

And what does bush have to do with what biden just said? Deflect much?

Whatever... The people who are claiming Obama will fix everything are the same ones who claim we think he's the messiah. Obama isn't perfect but he's a hellova lot better than a senile old man backed up by a fundie idiot.

That, is yet to be known. Let's wait a few years :laugh:

Wait for what? I base that statement on proposals from both sides. Given their positions and the fact that it's one or the other who do you think has a more favorable outlook?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
All I will do with this is file it away. I have too much self-reflective experience not to know that all I (and of course you) ever do with scary ideas is project into them my own (your)insanity. I had to see what a worthless piece of shit my rationalizing self is to be able to see this fact in me. How about you? Can you see how worthlessly you rationalize too?

Leaves a bitter taste in your mouth doesn't it?
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

So your answer to bidens comments is "Well bush did it!"? :roll:

now you are being willfully obtuse.

my comments are back on page whatever wherein I stated that Obama and Biden have said they won't make the same mistake as Bush when it comes to "unjustified military action" which you seem to think Biden is make a subtle reference to in his comments.

you see? I can stay on topic without deflecting. You should try it sometime.

I just went back to look at your comments. It seems you never did comment on Biden's words. You only spoke of bush, how obama is somehow better and then attacked me with tin foil hat BS. Sorry, but I would like to discuss the topic at hand of which you cannot seem to follow. Go away.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Whatever would be on my list, rest assured, going into Iraq wouldn't have been on it.

How many more Americans would need to have been killed before you would believe that defensive actions would need to take place such as those performed during that time? I realize that is quite the cookie cutter question, but really try to think about it for a moment. Where is the line truly drawn for you before you would agree that overseas defensive military action is necessary for the greater good of this country and our allies?

Well, for starters, Iraq would have had to attack us. That didn't happen. Of course, I don't read history books written by Dick Cheney.
 

nixium

Senior member
Aug 25, 2008
919
3
76
Occam's razor, people. Biden's known for his verbal gaffes; he simply wanted to sound slightly negative and foreboding, and his foot-in-the-mouth disease took care of the rest. It's not some sort of high level political conspiracy to embroil the states in another crisis.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
The tin foil hat wearers are the ones who believe that Obama is the fix for all their problems. That he is some how not the normal politician. :laugh:

And what does bush have to do with what biden just said? Deflect much?

Whatever... The people who are claiming Obama will fix everything are the same ones who claim we think he's the messiah. Obama isn't perfect but he's a hellova lot better than a senile old man backed up by a fundie idiot.

That, is yet to be known. Let's wait a few years :laugh:

Wait for what? I base that statement on proposals from both sides. Given their positions and the fact that it's one or the other who do you think has a more favorable outlook?

Do you base Bush on his proposals before he was elected? ;)
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Regardless of Biden's comments, I can already smell the odor of the pro-war left.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: OrByte
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

So your answer to bidens comments is "Well bush did it!"? :roll:

now you are being willfully obtuse.

my comments are back on page whatever wherein I stated that Obama and Biden have said they won't make the same mistake as Bush when it comes to "unjustified military action" which you seem to think Biden is make a subtle reference to in his comments.

you see? I can stay on topic without deflecting. You should try it sometime.

I just went back to look at your comments. It seems you never did comment on Biden's words. You only spoke of bush, how obama is somehow better and then attacked me with tin foil hat BS. Sorry, but I would like to discuss the topic at hand of which you cannot seem to follow. Go away.
You mentioned "unjustified military action" I am sorry if 80% of American associates GWB with the words "unjustified military action." if you read my comments from earlier you didnt do a good enough job.

Ive been discussing the issue. As soon as you saw "GWB" you went into panic mode or something...You obviously don't want to discuss anything associated with GWB. Which makes me wonder why you brought up the idea of "unjustified military action" under an Obama/Biden administration...when clearly Obama has stated from the start he doesn't believe in such foreign policy.

You got caught projecting failed Bush policies on a future Administration that has from DAY ONE stated that such failed foreign policies would not be a part of US doctrine moving forward. And you used Bidens verbal vomit from earlier today as a means to project such policies. I'm sorry, but Im not going to assume the same as you. I think that would be making an error.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So what he's saying that if something happens you can count on Obama doing the right thing even if it's not popular. We'll see.

Hell, if he does the right thing when it's POPULAR then I'll be impressed. If he does it when it's unpopular, I'll eat my hat.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Whatever would be on my list, rest assured, going into Iraq wouldn't have been on it.

How many more Americans would need to have been killed before you would believe that defensive actions would need to take place such as those performed during that time? I realize that is quite the cookie cutter question, but really try to think about it for a moment. Where is the line truly drawn for you before you would agree that overseas defensive military action is necessary for the greater good of this country and our allies?

Well, for starters, Iraq would have had to attack us. That didn't happen. Of course, I don't read history books written by Dick Cheney.

Do you or do you not support the defensive actions that we took between the years of 2001-2003?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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All I see is a Biden who is speculating that our Next President will be tested. Which is an almost certain statement although it may be impossible to predict exactly what the first, second, and third or fourth or more tests will be. And somewhat like GWB after 911, we the American people will have no choice to rally behind our President.

So far, I see nothing even remotely disturbing about Biden asking us to think about that question, and I do not think its a matter of experience, because we have seen the conventional wisdom answers of GWB, they have not worked, and I see little evidence that McCain will do better than GWB. So I am willing to gamble on Obama. Of course, many McCain fans may beg to differ, but when both you and I go to the polls, this should be one of the questions we should be prepared to vote on.

What I fail to understand, is why all the chicken little types on this thread are now running around crying Biden said the sky is falling, and we all need to get tin foil hard hats.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Whatever would be on my list, rest assured, going into Iraq wouldn't have been on it.

How many more Americans would need to have been killed before you would believe that defensive actions would need to take place such as those performed during that time? I realize that is quite the cookie cutter question, but really try to think about it for a moment. Where is the line truly drawn for you before you would agree that overseas defensive military action is necessary for the greater good of this country and our allies?

Well, for starters, Iraq would have had to attack us. That didn't happen. Of course, I don't read history books written by Dick Cheney.

Do you or do you not support the defensive actions that we took between the years of 2001-2003?

There was absolutely, positively ZERO defensive reasons for invading Iraq. Iraq was of no threat to us whatsoever.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Do you or do you not support the defensive actions that we took between the years of 2001-2003?

There was absolutely, positively ZERO defensive reasons for invading Iraq. Iraq was of no threat to us whatsoever.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I support most of what we chose to do between 2001-2003 and you do not. None of us can predict what might have happened if we chose to do nothing during that time and I would rather not speculate on it with you.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Do you or do you not support the defensive actions that we took between the years of 2001-2003?

There was absolutely, positively ZERO defensive reasons for invading Iraq. Iraq was of no threat to us whatsoever.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I support most of what we chose to do between 2001-2003 and you do not. None of us can predict what might have happened if we chose to do nothing during that time and I would rather not speculate on it with you.

Oh please, entertain us all, speculate!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,235
6,338
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Regardless of Biden's comments, I can already smell the odor of the pro-war left.

That's the smell of where you've stuck your head.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: bamacre
Regardless of Biden's comments, I can already smell the odor of the pro-war left.

At least they have a track record of actually winning wars. ;):p
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Originally posted by: Ldir
It sounds like he knows something we don't. Maybe he knows there is a bigger mess to clean up than anyone will admit before the election.

Come on now, you cant blame Bush BEFORE something happens. Wait, you just did.


AT P&N for the last 8 years:


Headline: "Bush fucks X up"

Bush apologist: "Well, Clinton left him this mess, he's just trying to clean it up"

People with IQ over 40: "It's ok little boy, it's ok."

Fixed.

Let me guess. You are the child left behind. It is ok to admit it. We will not laugh at you. More than we already do. You brought up Bush. Not me. Nice to see you are continuing to preemptively play apologist for him.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Do you or do you not support the defensive actions that we took between the years of 2001-2003?

There was absolutely, positively ZERO defensive reasons for invading Iraq. Iraq was of no threat to us whatsoever.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I support most of what we chose to do between 2001-2003 and you do not. None of us can predict what might have happened if we chose to do nothing during that time and I would rather not speculate on it with you.
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Beyond the fact that we had to get Ossama Bin Laden and Al-Quida after 911, I support little of what was done between 911 and the time we invaded Iraq. Of course between Iraq invasion and now, GWB&co. went from really bad to unbelievably bad.

And even if we had to invade and occupy Afghanistan almost immediately after 911, the Afghan invasion and occupation was mishandled from the start. Far too few troops and our second giant mistake was to ally ourselves with the corrupt Northern alliance. After that, we were long terms doomed in Afghanistan. But I do agree, we can't ever find out what would have happened if GWB&co. had been smarter. But we can learn from mistakes.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: OrByte
More BS.

:laugh:

You're so full of shit. Are you gonna comment at all at any time about biden's comments? Ever? If not, hold your tongue, I told you I do not want to discuss anything but that with you. Now go away. Gee, you're like a lost dog someone fed, that won't go away. :laugh: