Harvard Study claims that more guns does not equal more murders and suicides.

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Someday you might come to appreciate the danger of power in another form than 'state'.
 

Anarchist420

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Someday you might come to appreciate the danger of power in another form than 'state'.
I never will see anything to be more dangerous to humanity than the State.:)

I mean, when high tax rates drive my friends out of their country, then I don't appreciate the State. When the govt jacks the price of medicine through the roof, I don't appreciate that. I don't appreciate not being allowed to put anything in my body that I want to.

When the wreckless public spending causes hyperinflation, I won't appreciate the State.

When my parents lose their house, it's because the govt made borrowing more attractive due to below market short term interest rates and taxation of savings.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I never will see anything to be more dangerous to humanity than the State.:)

I mean, when high tax rates drive my friends out of their country, then I don't appreciate the State. When the govt jacks the price of medicine through the roof, I don't appreciate that. I don't appreciate not being allowed to put anything in my body that I want to.

When the wreckless public spending causes hyperinflation, I won't appreciate the State.

When my parents lose their house, it's because the govt made borrowing more attractive due to below market short term interest rates and taxation of savings.

For most of human history, the power structure has been that there is an autocratic ruler, with a small supporting class, and perhaps 98% of society are serfs who spend their days and their lives serving that power, either contributing labor to farm and construct, or as soldiers to kill and take or to defend the power of the ruler from other rulers.

You prefer that to a state under democracy, with a constitution guaranteeing individual rights, and a principle that the government with their consent?

But let's take the alternative you seem to suggest to those autocratic powers as well. Human history is filled with them as well, in the earlier stages, whether pre-Rome, or the dark ages in England, or the early days in China or Japan or many others. The stateless 'anarchy' you want. It was filled with minor warlords who organized, and led small to medium sized tribes, where everyone had to follow the rules of the tribe to contribute, and the tribes ruthlessly murdered one another for gain.

Taking China as an example, you can see the long progress from this 'anarchistic' situation of tribes living brutally, to the gradual consolidation of power that allowed civilization to develop and advance. Medicine, the arts, and all kinds of other things only possible in a larger civilization with a state that gave some breathing room to citizens from the state of barbaric war people find themselves in without that state.

Japan, the same. It was after consolidation, the creation of the shogunate, they began to be able to develop culture - poetry, and other arts - that was more 'civilization'.y

You have a very naive and incorrect idea that it's possible to have some stateless utopia. It's not. What you can have is a better state, a worse state, or barbarity.

You could use learning more history to get some appreication that your paranoia of the state is misplaced - and that you don't appreciate the danger of power in 'private' hands.

You get a taste of that in the early days of the industrical revolution, where a few wealthy owners had a situation where people could work or starve, and working meant unsafe conditions, working at least six 16-hour days, for barely enough to eat, alongside their children and subject to the dictatorial power of their employer. There's a reason there was a labor struggle for decades where people would risk their lives. And that's only a taste of how bad things get in yoiur state-free unintended dictatorship of private power.

Where you get no power, no vote, no wealth, no constitutional rights, where you are reduced to survival to serve the needs of those who have the power and wealth.

Workers in 1890 factories didn't get to vote or have say in improving the condititons they had. That's only part of how far back you want to take things in your paranoia of a state.

Your views remind me a bit of the sort of reaction of Ayn Rand. People who go through some traumatic oppression - though in your case it's not something that happened - tend to get a bit warped by it. Rand reacted terribly to the oppression of the Soviet state - and ni reaction created some false utopia where another extreme was the solution, where altruism was evil and selfishness the only morality. That was clearly only an extreme rejection of the Soviet system - which had at its core some societal concern for the good of the people, but itself an extreme reaction to the horrible abuses of power of the Czar system that it replaced. And I've no doubt the Czar system had its benefits when formed, likely as part of that unification to prevent the violent condlict of regional tribes I mentioned.

Your views are not based on any apparent understandings of societies, but rather a sort of obsessive paranoia about the imperfect aspects of the system you know.

That's the sort of thinking that leads to the type of utopianism that's especially dangerous.

The French and English beheaded their kings, opposing that tyranny - only to find they had created a new tyranny. The English put the beheaded King's son back on the throne.

While they were radically opposed to the 'tyranny of the royal state', they didn't go to some stateless utopia - merely a more democratic state as the best solution. There's a reason.

It'd be nice if you could experience the attempt to do what you want and see how horribly it goes, but it's not pracitcal to give you a society to learn that. So, learn from history.

When power is taken from a state, it doesn't go to 'the people'. It goes to new, smaller, generally more tyrannical leaders - some form of tribalism. Worse for 'the people'.

Or, in today's corporatocracy, it goes into the hands of the wealthy and powerful private owners - who give people a lot fewer rights than the people vote for themselves.

In that case, the people find themselves stipped of the power to vote on taxes, education, healthcare, environmental protection or anything else restricting the powerful.

Remember the lesson in Rome - after it becamse an empire with an emperor, they always said they were a government 'of the people', with a Senate representing the people. It was a complete fiction - but they continued to give it lip service for centuries, because it was a useful myth. It helped prevent the people from revolting under tyranny.

That's the sort of faux-democracy we can expect when your prescription against a democratic state is followed - the power going into the hands of an Orwellian, dictatorial state.

You already have some taste of it today, as you see money in elections determining who those elected 'really serve', over 'the people', much of the time.

Save234
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
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This isn't a Harvard study. It's published in a Harvard journal. It isn't a study either, more of a literature review. And the authors are members of libertarian think tanks.

That said, the correlational evidence for firearms vs. crime is largely inconclusive because there are too many variables in crime to isolate causation. Anyone who wants to make a point can cherry pick correlational data. People on both sides of this issue have a tendency to do that.

This is one reason I don't support gun control. In order to justify a state restriction there must be solid evidence. While I'm not a libertarian, I do think that personal choice is the default position unless or until compelling evidence dictates otherwise.
 

Anarchist420

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ireland was pretty much stateless before cromwell (as of whom overthrew a monarchy and then replaced it with democratic mercantilism)... it wasn't perfect, but it was better than what they have now IMO. Switzerland was a confederation for 200 or so years.

Remember the lesson in Rome - after it becamse an empire with an emperor, they always said they were a government 'of the people', with a Senate representing the people. It was a complete fiction - but they continued to give it lip service for centuries, because it was a useful myth. It helped prevent the people from revolting under tyranny.
We don't have a government of the people here. Govts of the people don't exist and they never have.
When power is taken from a state, it doesn't go to 'the people'. It goes to new, smaller, generally more tyrannical leaders - some form of tribalism. Worse for 'the people'.
If they're smaller, then they can't be more tyrannical. They may be more tyrannical some times, but they don't last forever.
Workers in 1890 factories didn't get to vote or have say in improving the condititons they had. That's only part of how far back you want to take things in your paranoia of a state.
Labor unions aren't a good idea because the leaders take a lot, they cause unemployment or higher prices, and they cause less work to be done... eventually the company goes out of business if they pay too much. I realize that CEO pay is very high but a lot of that has to do with the State and the idea ingrained in the minds of many that everything has to have a single head. The financial sector is so rich because they get free money from a govt institution. So labor unions don't decrease the Gini index (which is what you seem to care about) and central banking probably increases it.

Nazi Germany had maximum wage laws and they didn't work.

The UAW was a large part of what crashed GM and Chrysler.
 

Anarchist420

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This isn't a Harvard study. It's published in a Harvard journal. It isn't a study either, more of a literature review. And the authors are members of libertarian think tanks. That said, the correlational evidence for firearms vs. crime is largely inconclusive because there are too many variables in crime to isolate causation. Anyone who wants to make a point can cherry pick correlational data. People on both sides of this issue have a tendency to do that. This is one reason I don't support gun control. In order to justify a state restriction there must be solid evidence. While I'm not a libertarian, I do think that personal choice is the default position unless or until compelling evidence dictates otherwise.
Thank you for the good reply:)
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,391
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ireland was pretty much stateless before cromwell (as of whom overthrew a monarchy and then replaced it with democratic mercantilism)... it wasn't perfect, but it was better than what they have now IMO. Switzerland was a confederation for 200 or so years.

We don't have a government of the people here. Govts of the people don't exist and they never have.
If they're smaller, then they can't be more tyrannical. They may be more tyrannical some times, but they don't last forever.
Labor unions aren't a good idea because the leaders take a lot, they cause unemployment or higher prices, and they cause less work to be done... eventually the company goes out of business if they pay too much. I realize that CEO pay is very high but a lot of that has to do with the State and the idea ingrained in the minds of many that everything has to have a single head. The financial sector is so rich because they get free money from a govt institution. So labor unions don't decrease the Gini index (which is what you seem to care about) and central banking probably increases it.

Nazi Germany had maximum wage laws and they didn't work.

The UAW was a large part of what crashed GM and Chrysler.
How can you say they can't be more tyrannical and then go on to say that they can be more tyrannical in the very next sentence? Your premise that "they don't last forever" is unsupported nonsense.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
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This isn't a Harvard study. It's published in a Harvard journal. It isn't a study either, more of a literature review. And the authors are members of libertarian think tanks.

That said, the correlational evidence for firearms vs. crime is largely inconclusive because there are too many variables in crime to isolate causation. Anyone who wants to make a point can cherry pick correlational data. People on both sides of this issue have a tendency to do that.

This is one reason I don't support gun control. In order to justify a state restriction there must be solid evidence. While I'm not a libertarian, I do think that personal choice is the default position unless or until compelling evidence dictates otherwise.

I support what I refer to as "intelligent gun control". There are certain things that make sense and certain things that don't. I support extensive background checks. I also don't see why a standard citizen needs an assault style weapon. Personally I would support some kind of training requirement for any guns that are capable of being auto or semi-auto so that at least we know that anyone who wants to use one legally can also do so safely.

I don't know if I've seen anything conclusive either way about murders, but I've seen the results of many studies that show that owning a gun makes you significantly more likely to successfully commit suicide.
 

Anarchist420

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I also don't see why a standard citizen needs an assault style weapon.
During the 92 LA Riots innocent people with assault weapons saved themselves.

I support extensive background checks.
That can prevent non-criminals from getting protection when they need it. while it can save lives, it can also cost lives and is at the expense of liberty.

don't know if I've seen anything conclusive either way about murders, but I've seen the results of many studies that show that owning a gun makes you significantly more likely to successfully commit suicide.
The way I look at it is that certain peoples are more prone to aggression than others and that a total gun ban might be able to stop that, but that it really is unethical and not worthit. Gun control has to be forced through guns.

Anyway, gun control is really just like socialism... the latter doesn't really reduce inequality in European countries because they're more ethnically and ideologically homogeneous. Likewise, gun bans don't reduce crime in an ethnically homogeneous society.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,391
33,048
136
Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure how that's unsupported nonsense.
Correct, nothing lasts forever, which is why counting it as an advantage for smaller tyrannical government over larger tyrannical government is nonsense.

They're not more tyrannical overall.
More unsupported nonsense. What do you use to gauge overall tyrannical rating?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
During the 92 LA Riots innocent people with assault weapons saved themselves.

What do you mean 'riots'?

That was just the glorious non-state you want.

Anyway, gun control is really just like socialism... the latter doesn't really reduce inequality in European countries because they're more ethnically and ideologically homogeneous. Likewise, gun bans don't reduce crime in an ethnically homogeneous society.

That's a lot of nonsense.

Socialism does 'really reduce inequality'. Do you just make up your conclusions?

Not all gun violence is across 'ethnic' lines. I'd guess most isn't.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
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What do you mean 'riots'?

That was just the glorious non-state you want.



That's a lot of nonsense.

Socialism does 'really reduce inequality'. Do you just make up your conclusions?

Not all gun violence is across 'ethnic' lines. I'd guess most isn't.

Socialism on paper does reduce inequality, but socialism in practice doesn't. That isn't the fault of socialism itself; it is the people involved.

I'd argue the majority of gun violence is due to poverty. There are some outliers, but those numbers a very small percent of the 12,000 or so gun deaths a year in the US.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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For most of human history, the power structure has been that there is an autocratic ruler, with a small supporting class, and perhaps 98% of society are serfs who spend their days and their lives serving that power, either contributing labor to farm and construct, or as soldiers to kill and take or to defend the power of the ruler from other rulers.

You prefer that to a state under democracy, with a constitution guaranteeing individual rights, and a principal that the government with their consent?

But let's take the alternative you seem to suggest to those autocratic powers as well. Human history is filled with them as well, in the earlier stages, whether pre-Rome, or the dark ages in England, or the early days in China or Japan or many others. The stateless 'anarchy' you want. It was filled with minor warlords who organized, and led small to medium sized tribes, where everyone had to follow the rules of the tribe to contribute, and the tribes ruthlessly murdered one another for gain.

Taking China as an example, you can see the long progress from this 'anarchistic' situation of tribes living brutally, to the gradual consolidation of power that allowed civilization to develop and advance. Medicine, the arts, and all kinds of other things only possible in a larger civilization with a state that gave some breathing room to citizens from the state of barbaric war people find themselves in without that state.

Japan, the same. It was after consolidation, the creation of the shogunate, they began to be able to develop culture - poetry, and other arts - that was more 'civilization'.y

You have a very naive and incorrect idea that it's possible to have some stateless utopia. It's not. What you can have is a better state, a worse state, or barbarity.

You could use learning more history to get some appreication that your paranoia of the state is misplaced - and that you don't appreciate the danger of power in 'private' hands.

You get a taste of that in the early days of the industrical revolution, where a few wealthy owners had a situation where people could work or starve, and working meant unsafe conditions, working at least six 16-hour days, for barely enough to eat, alongside their children and subject to the dictatorial power of their employer. There's a reason there was a labor struggle for decades where people would risk their lives. And that's only a taste of how bad things get in yoiur state-free unintended dictatorship of private power.

Where you get no power, no vote, no wealth, no constitutional rights, where you are reduced to survival to serve the needs of those who have the power and wealth.

Workers in 1890 factories didn't get to vote or have say in improving the condititons they had. That's only part of how far back you want to take things in your paranoia of a state.

Your views remind me a bit of the sort of reaction of Ayn Rand. People who go through some traumatic oppression - though in your case it's not something that happened - tend to get a bit warped by it. Rand reacted terribly to the oppression of the Soviet state - and ni reaction created some false utopia where another extreme was the solution, where altruism was evil and selfishness the only morality. That was clearly only an extreme rejection of the Soviet system - which had at its core some societal concern for the good of the people, but itself an extreme reaction to the horrible abuses of power of the Czar system that it replaced. And I've no doubt the Czar system had its benefits when formed, likely as part of that unification to prevent the violent condlict of regional tribes I mentioned.

Your views are not based on any apparent understandings of societies, but rather a sort of obsessive paranoia about the imperfect aspects of the system you know.

That's the sort of thinking that leads to the type of utopianism that's especially dangerous.

The French and English beheaded their kings, opposing that tyranny - only to find they had created a new tyranny. The English put the beheaded King's son back on the throne.

While they were radically opposed to the 'tyranny of the royal state', they didn't go to some stateless utopia - merely a more democratic state as the best solution. There's a reason.

It'd be nice if you could experience the attempt to do what you want and see how horribly it goes, but it's not pracitcal to give you a society to learn that. So, learn from history.

When power is taken from a state, it doesn't go to 'the people'. It goes to new, smaller, generally more tyrannical leaders - some form of tribalism. Worse for 'the people'.

Or, in today's corporatocracy, it goes into the hands of the wealthy and powerful private owners - who give people a lot fewer rights than the people vote for themselves.

In that case, the people find themselves stipped of the power to vote on taxes, education, healthcare, environmental protection or anything else restricting the powerful.

Remember the lesson in Rome - after it becamse an empire with an emperor, they always said they were a government 'of the people', with a Senate representing the people. It was a complete fiction - but they continued to give it lip service for centuries, because it was a useful myth. It helped prevent the people from revolting under tyranny.

That's the sort of faux-democracy we can expect when your prescription against a democratic state is followed - the power going into the hands of an Orwellian, dictatorial state.

You already have some taste of it today, as you see money in elections determining who those elected 'really serve', over 'the people', much of the time.

Save234

Bravo!
 

Anarchist420

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What do you mean 'riots'? That was just the glorious non-state you want.
[Link]
That's the way it is at first, but things clear up if you give them time. The depression after the Revolutionary War would've happened even if an even stronger central govt had been established in 1781, based upon economic law (Gresham's law for one), Austrian Business Cycle Theory, AND based upon what unAustrian historical evidence says.

Govts teach their subjects to have high time preference and that gives the govt what it needs to grow.

Socialism does 'really reduce inequality'. Do you just make up your conclusions?
Europe has never really had a free market economy so you can't make your own conclusion either. Even if socialism did reduce inequality there though, it's forced upon people and the young people don't like it.

Not all gun violence is across 'ethnic' lines. I'd guess most isn't.
I agree. It's mostly the bloods murdering the crips and vice versa.

Socialism on paper does reduce inequality, but socialism in practice doesn't.
I think you're right about it being the people. If we had socialized medicine the rich alone wouldn't pay the taxes for it, and there would likely be horrendous wait times. We have the most graduated revenue system in the world, and that's perfectly fine, but it could never pay for the socialization of the entire medical sector.
More unsupported nonsense. What do you use to gauge overall tyrannical rating?
By the number of sovereigns there are in the world. If there were just one sovereign, then that would be ~99% tyranny. If everyone were sovereign, then humanity would be ~99% free.

I realize that people could still be enslaved, but there would be no central protection for it.

Do you really think that the people of Virginia would be less free if it seceded today? If you answer, then explain your answer.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Socialism on paper does reduce inequality, but socialism in practice doesn't. That isn't the fault of socialism itself; it is the people involved.

I'd argue the majority of gun violence is due to poverty. There are some outliers, but those numbers a very small percent of the 12,000 or so gun deaths a year in the US.

Socialism in practice does, too. Here's your homework: make up a list of societies with more socialism (not communism, socialism), and a list with more equality. Note the correlation.

It's pretty easy to see in our own history as well. Our peaks in inequality have been at the same time as our peaks in not having 'socialist' policies, and vice versa.

The more 'socialist' New Deal policies brought less inequality.

The recent decades shift back towards a reduction of 'socialist' policies - as corporations have gained power, as many government functions have been slashed, as deregulation has passed, as big banks have thrived, and so on - we've seen a return to record inequality. Corporatism has brought with it a historic shift of wealth to the top.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Thanks for the link, but I was there.

That's the way it is at first, but things clear up if you give them time.

Of course they do - when a state if formed.

Europe has never really had a free market economy so you can't make your own conclusion either. Even if socialism did reduce inequality there though, it's forced upon people and the young people don't like it.

They can be compared to societies with less 'socialism', and to their own countries when they have more and less 'socialism'.

For example, in England, after WWII, an influential paper was written which recommended the country move heavily to more socialism, with things like the NHS - and it did.

You can compare inequality before and after.

I'm surprised the usual dogma hasn't been brought up that left-wing policies allow for more equality - everyone gets to be poor.

That's nonsensical as well. It has some truth in the extreme - communism tends to that result - but ignores that too little socialism makes more people poorer as well.

I think you're right about it being the people. If we had socialized medicine the rich alone wouldn't pay the taxes for it, and there would likely be horrendous wait times. We have the most graduated revenue system in the world, and that's perfectly fine, but it could never pay for the socialization of the entire medical sector.
By the number of sovereigns there are in the world. If there were just one sovereign, then that would be ~99% tyranny. If everyone were sovereign, then humanity would be ~99% free.

The only reason for 'horrible wait times' is if it isn't funded enough. The current system often has pretty bad wait times as well for many - and many who can't afford it at all.

Of COURSE we could pay for the 'socialization of the entire medial sector'. Do you have any idea what we pay for the sector, as we pay double the next most expensive country already - even while the rest of the advanced world largely already pays for the entire sector with 'socialized' medicine?

Do you have any idea of the waste reductions a single-payer system brings compared to the expenses in the profit system?

Not to mention the disadvantage of the 'market' system that leaves millions effectively unable to get healthcare, unless they're very wealthy.

The inefficiencies of the duplicate paperwork and processes for hundreds of insurers, all the waste of denied claims and negotiating, the sales and marketing expenses, profits, etc.
 

Anarchist420

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The only reason for 'horrible wait times' is if it isn't funded enough.
Then more people, other than the wealthy, have to pay for it.
Of COURSE we could pay for the 'socialization of the entire medial sector'. Do you have any idea what we pay for the sector, as we pay double the next most expensive country already - even while the rest of the advanced world largely already pays for the entire sector with 'socialized' medicine?
That's all due to IP and other regulations as well as licensure. Medicare probably doesn't help things. The coding and billing system and the insurance regulations that they have to pay for things other than catastrophic events increases costs.
Did you know that France has the equivalent of a national sales tax and that it makes up close to 50% of their govt revenues? Britain has a VAT and a higher payroll tax, both regressive taxes.
The current system often has pretty bad wait times as well for many - and many who can't afford it at all.
Nowhere near as bad Britain. Those with higher incomes don't use the NHS for a reason.

Waits here could be better but that's because people here don't always need to see the doctor... if I have to go get a prescription, that increases the wait for everyone else thanks to licensure.

In VA some doctors have been fighting tooth and nail lobbying the legislature to prevent nurses from being allowed to do more. If, for some reason, they can't get the VA GA to do it, then they'll just go to Congress and Congress will pass it.

Do you have any idea of the waste reductions a single-payer system brings compared to the expenses in the profit system?
I realize that there are waste reductions to be had in a socialized system. There are just as many waste reductions to be had in a free health care sector.
Single payer is for profit. Britain's NHS isn't single payer. Medicare is single payer. The Veteran's Admin hospitals are socialized and their employees are paid at least a time and a half as much as private sector employees are paid and they can't get fired.
 

Anarchist420

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Not to mention the disadvantage of the 'market' system that leaves millions effectively unable to get healthcare, unless they're very wealthy.
I volunteered at a clinic today with my dad. We volunteer there twice a week and he doesn't even get tax deductions. I was unable to volunteer at another clinic because they said they already had enough volunteers at the time.

Maybe my dad could open an all-volunteer hospital if the govt didn't spend so much.
 

Anarchist420

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The inefficiencies of the duplicate paperwork and processes for hundreds of insurers, all the waste of denied claims and negotiating, the sales and marketing expenses, profits, etc.
The govt built up the insurance industry. Doctors are free to be cash only practices and many doctors choose to do so. Marketing expenses by drug companies are due to IP.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I realize that there are waste reductions to be had in a socialized system. There are just as many waste reductions to be had in a free health care sector.

No, there aren't. Other than some bizarre 'get rid of all licensing' type idea apparently.

Single payer is for profit. Britain's NHS isn't single payer. Medicare is single payer. The Veteran's Admin hospitals are socialized and their employees are paid at least a time and a half as much as private sector employees are paid and they can't get fired.

I'll rephrase 'single payer' to 'socialized'.

I don't know the salaries of VA employees, but the VA has a lot of efficiencies. The same care from the VA costs a lot less than from our private system.

It's not perfect by any means, but that doesn't take away from its benefits.

A legitimate concern with any government system is how politics can get in the way of running and funding it well. Especially with the tea party around.

Look at these tea party governors - except Arizona, where she is being reasonable - who are playing politics to deny millions of their own citizens healthcare paid for by the federal government (100% in the early period, and 90% later). Those same people would happily trash any healthcare system by the government they could get their hands on.

That isn't to say that the alternative of the current system doesn't pose even bigger risks and costs to many Americans.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The govt built up the insurance industry. Doctors are free to be cash only practices and many doctors choose to do so. Marketing expenses by drug companies are due to IP.

Wrong.

For example, the government passed a law against monopolies. That's 'governmet interference in the marketplace', which is a good thing you hate.

But the then-tiny medical insurance industry got itself an exemption to the law no one realized would come to have a big impact.

That's the government NOT doing something, which you like, and is bad for people. That exemption FROM the government has allowed all kinds of bad things in the inidustry.

Marketing expenses in the medical insurance industry is what we're talking about. With competing insurers, they all have the wasteful overhead of paying for advertising and sales forces competing with each other trying to sell their company's products, a large expense that doesn't exist with 'socialized medicine'.

That large expense is a big reason why Obamacare has the law require insurance companies to spend 80% of revenue on healthcare, not things like marketing, because absent that requirement, the competitive system would pressure companies to have even more 'inefficiency' for that marketing.

You raise the new issue of drug companies - yes, that's largely because of IP, because that's the system we have - companies are rewarded for investing in research.

I'd ask what you suggest instead, but I'm betting I'd rather not. Surely it's not the government funding and directing research in the public interest.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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I volunteered at a clinic today with my dad. We volunteer there twice a week and he doesn't even get tax deductions. I was unable to volunteer at another clinic because they said they already had enough volunteers at the time.

Maybe my dad could open an all-volunteer hospital if the govt didn't spend so much.

People say communists had delusions of everyone working for the public good, but...