Harry Reid - we can not have people break the law and just walk away

[Oldgamer]

Cows eat every damned thing, they kill new foliage and they will overgraze an area to the point of the land becoming a dry piece of crap. That is why ranchers historically have to keep their cows fenced in on their property to avoid this. Again this guy "bundy" is getting free feed and roam at the expense and damage of the taxpayer!

 

[Incorruptible]

Duh-vert! Duh-vert! Duh-vert! Sound the klaxon, dive deep into the safe & comforting waters of denial!

LOL!

 

[Oldgamer]

I see it all the time around here. Cattle and horses will strip the land to nothing.

Ok then we agree they do a great deal of damage to lands, and you do realize we aren't just talking about the BLM areas of land now, that Bundy's cows keep going further and further into other land areas. It was the wildlife folks for the wild horses, and other wildlife that started complaining about all the damage and the endangerment of the wildlife competing for foliage. Bundy cannot be allowed to continue to encroach on others lands without consequence. I think you are being played by the conservative media on this issue on thinking somehow he has a right to let his cows go where ever they want just because it is Government land. That would be like a local rancher next to the wildlife forests being allowed to let their animals destroy the foliage in Yosemite park and other forest park areas, just because they think "well it's owned by the federal government, and I don't recognize the federal government". No land was taken away from this guy and he and his family have not owned any of the areas his cows are trespassing on in over 100 some odd years. So seriously some folks need to get a grip on this thing.

 

[Matt1970]

Reference my reply to Incomprehensible.

Reference Reid. "“We can’t have, in America, people that violate the law and just walk away from it. So it’s not over" You will note he didn't say "violate THIS law". Pointing out hypocrisy is not a diversion.

 

[soundforbjt]

Land belongs to who? The federal government? So what?

This is a victimless crime.

I would consider the 16,000 who do pay grazing fees to be victims, compared to this thief.

 

[Incorruptible]

Reference Reid. "“We can’t have, in America, people that violate the law and just walk away from it. So it’s not over" You will note he didn't say "violate THIS law". Pointing out hypocrisy is not a diversion.

He just can't accept the hypocrisy of his crony Reid.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are you really from Texas?? Do you know the amount of damage that cattle do to lands?

He's a total ignoramus in that regard. Over grazing has damaged enormous areas in the arid West, leading to reduced productivity in a self defeating downward spiral for ranchers. Over grazed, lands that once could support one cow on 20 acres support only one cow on 40 acres, then 80 acres, eventually become barren or nearly so.

WRT public lands, it's called the tragedy of the commons-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

It's what happened over much of the middle east & the mediterranean, also China, occurring over hundreds & thousands of years. Primitive herders & farmers didn't know what they were doing because it happens slowly over generations. We do know. In that, we have an obligation to provide good stewardship of the land for future generations.

 

[Texashiker]

He's a total ignoramus in that regard. Over grazing has damaged enormous areas in the arid West, leading to reduced productivity in a self defeating downward spiral for ranchers.

Cows eat every damned thing, they kill new foliage and they will overgraze an area to the point of the land becoming a dry piece of crap. That is why ranchers historically have to keep their cows fenced in on their property to avoid this. Again this guy "bundy" is getting free feed and roam at the expense and damage of the taxpayer!

None of which changes the fact reid is making a big deal of out cattle, while ignoring violations against basic human rights such as torture.

If reid wants to uphold the law, then uphold it. Lets start with bush and cheney for torture, and obama for killing us citizens without due process.

 

[Vic]

Land belongs to who? The federal government? So what?

This is a victimless crime.

Cool beans! I'm going to start building my dream house overlooking St Mary Lake in Glacier National Park right away.

 

[glenn1]

He's a total ignoramus in that regard. Over grazing has damaged enormous areas in the arid West, leading to reduced productivity in a self defeating downward spiral for ranchers. Over grazed, lands that once could support one cow on 20 acres support only one cow on 40 acres, then 80 acres, eventually become barren or nearly so.

WRT public lands, it's called the tragedy of the commons-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

It's what happened over much of the middle east & the mediterranean, also China, occurring over hundreds & thousands of years. Primitive herders & farmers didn't know what they were doing because it happens slowly over generations. We do know. In that, we have an obligation to provide good stewardship of the land for future generations.

Sure, this is unsustainable in the desert southwest, just how building shitty Chryslers in Detroit or textile manufacuring in North Carolina has become. But the country didn't ease ourselves out of these industries by reclassifying the land to refuse them the right to operate there and following it up with a court order just to ensure that they'd not have further access to their business location.

Push comes to shove, this whole fiasco is just the latest chapter in the really fucked up law that is the Endangered Species Act which takes no account of the hardships it can and does impose on the people involved or how many livelihoods it can destroy.

 

[fskimospy]

Cool beans! I'm going to start building my dream house overlooking St Mary Lake in Glacier National Park right away.

That would be a really amazing view. Although it would involve living in South Dakota, I always thought making a house in George Washington's head at Mt. Rushmore, Team America style would be a pretty sweet place to live so I'm calling dibs on that one. When I need a taste of the city I'll just relocate to my condo in the crown of the Statue of Liberty.

 

[wetech]

tl;dr version - it's another Fed land grab on endangerd species grounds. The feds are expecting this rancher to simply stop making a living and go on welfare because turtles are more important than people.

The turtles aren't harmed if you pay the grazing fees.

 

[Jhhnn]

None of which changes the fact reid is making a big deal of out cattle, while ignoring violations against basic human rights such as torture.

If reid wants to uphold the law, then uphold it. Lets start with bush and cheney for torture, and obama for killing us citizens without due process.

So, uhh, when Reid is talking about a nutjob in Nevada you feel justified in attacking him because he's not talking about what you want him to say about unrelated subjects?

Harry needs to read the minds of every raving malcontent in America before he says anything, I guess.

 

[Matt1970]

He's a total ignoramus in that regard. Over grazing has damaged enormous areas in the arid West, leading to reduced productivity in a self defeating downward spiral for ranchers. Over grazed, lands that once could support one cow on 20 acres support only one cow on 40 acres, then 80 acres, eventually become barren or nearly so.

WRT public lands, it's called the tragedy of the commons-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

It's what happened over much of the middle east & the mediterranean, also China, occurring over hundreds & thousands of years. Primitive herders & farmers didn't know what they were doing because it happens slowly over generations. We do know. In that, we have an obligation to provide good stewardship of the land for future generations.

While I am not arguing for this farmer, he clearly broke the law, your link is laughable at best. It explains it as a theory and even has a picture of cows standing in grass that needs to be mowed. That's hardly over grazing.

 

[Oldgamer]

The turtles aren't harmed if you pay the grazing fees.

Paying the grazing fees does a number of things that will benefit any wild species on lands. 1) gives monetary means to replant foliage needed for the wildlife in the area, and also to maintain lands and water ways through enforcement for violations such as over grazing and or pollution, ect.
2) payment alone on a regular basis becomes enormously expensive thereby deterring cattle ranchers from letting their cows out to pasture on any lands that are not theirs.

By the way if any of you do some more reading you will find that it isn't just the tortoises that are endangered and need the foliage from the lands.

Here is an article on the actual tortoise and explains why they should be protected: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/the-nevada-tortoise-war-is-a-right-wing-false-f/198860

 

[Jhhnn]

Sure, this is unsustainable in the desert southwest, just how building shitty Chryslers in Detroit or textile manufacuring in North Carolina has become. But the country didn't ease ourselves out of these industries by reclassifying the land to refuse them the right to operate there and following it up with a court order just to ensure that they'd not have further access to their business location.

Push comes to shove, this whole fiasco is just the latest chapter in the really fucked up law that is the Endangered Species Act which takes no account of the hardships it can and does impose on the people involved or how many livelihoods it can destroy.

So, the answer is to just allow devastation of public lands in support of Freedumb, right?

Overgrazing by Bundy & his predecessors has damaged the productivity of the land, with the decline of the desert tortoise merely being one symptom of that. When they're gone, tough customers that they are, the land won't support much of anything, certainly not the cattle that future ranchers would want to graze there.

Referencing Detroit & N Carolina merely shows that capitalism has not performed good stewardship of the resources at their disposal, both natural & human. The same can be said for the coal country of Appalachia, gold mining areas of Colorado, & now the tar sands of Canada.

 

[Oldgamer]

While I am not arguing for this farmer, he clearly broke the law, your link is laughable at best. It explains it as a theory and even has a picture of cows standing in grass that needs to be mowed. That's hardly over grazing.

Do you realize that Bundy had been paying the fees for many years and it was only in 1993 when he decided to just stop paying altogether? This guy is a lawbreaker and the right wing media are using the ESA as an excuse to give cover to this guy. The guy should be thrown in jail in my opinion.

 

[Texashiker]

So, uhh, when Reid is talking about a nutjob in Nevada you feel justified in attacking him because he's not talking about what you want him to say about unrelated subjects?

Breaking / upholding the law is an unrelated subject?

These cattle got a better response than Benghazi did.

The guy should be thrown in jail in my opinion.

If his actions are not affecting you directly, it is none of your business.

 

[Jhhnn]

While I am not arguing for this farmer, he clearly broke the law, your link is laughable at best. It explains it as a theory and even has a picture of cows standing in grass that needs to be mowed. That's hardly over grazing.

Nitpicking as duh-version. The image is not intended to illustrate overgrazing.

 

[Oldgamer]

I find it interesting and somewhat alarming that all the so called "militia" men that were out in Nevada, were saying to the media that if law enforcement tries to force their way in that they were going to put all the women up front to be shot first and use them as a shield. These nut jobs care very little for people accept for their own delusional ideas. Any man who has to use a woman or a child as a shield for any type of battle is a scumbag in my book.

 

[Matt1970]

Nitpicking as duh-version. The image is not intended to illustrate overgrazing.

You will call anything a diversion.

 

[Atreus21]

I'm having a hard time siding with the rancher, much as I loathe siding with the Feds.

The law's the law.

 

[Matt1970]

Do you realize that Bundy had been paying the fees for many years and it was only in 1993 when he decided to just stop paying altogether? This guy is a lawbreaker and the right wing media are using the ESA as an excuse to give cover to this guy. The guy should be thrown in jail in my opinion.

I saw all that.

 

[boomerang]

Again this guy "bundy" is getting free feed and roam at the expense and damage of the taxpayer!

Maybe he's getting food stamps too that dirty bastard.

 

[Texashiker]

they were going to put all the women up front to be shot first and use them as a shield. These nut jobs care very little for people accept for their own delusional ideas. Any man who has to use a woman or a child as a shield for any type of battle is a scumbag in my book.

According to Lewis and Clark,

A group of all men is a war party.

A group with a woman is a peace party.

That is why Sacagawea joined the Lewis and Clark expedition, she rode out with the men when meeting new tribes and was part of the negations team.