"Hardware T&L has definitely been the most important feature of 2000."

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Another great article over at Beyond3D.

"Beyond3D : What has been more important up-to now - T&L or Per-Pixel Effects like EMBM, DOT3 and Register Combiners? What about the future, rather super-duper Pixel Shaders or Vertex Shaders? Maybe both?

Croteam : Yes, both! :) Both of them improves scene quality a great deal. So, I can't really decide. Maybe T&L, just because per-pixel effects are here to simulate some stuff that will be very hard to do with lots of polys. They cannot do the real stuff. T&L on the other hand, is for real - it doesn't simulate, you really have higher poly count and you can do with it whatever you want. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't replace per-pixel effects with a high-power T&L unit, since these features are very complementary.

MadOnion : Hardware T&L has definitely been the most important feature of 2000. It has offloaded the CPU to do other tasks in games and allowed for higher polygon counts, resulting in a better game play experience.

The spot as the 2nd most important features could have been FSAA or Texture Compression. Both of them improve image quality significantly, but neither has so far been used widely. I believe we will see wider acceptance of these features this year. Albeit nice features, EMBM & DOT3 don't even come close to the others.

Vertex and Pixel shaders are going to be the hit of the future. When? I don't know, but I wouldn't hold my breath to see them widely used in games anytime soon.

First we will see apps using vertex shaders, then vertex shaders combined with pixel shaders. Pixel shaders as such won't give much benefit over traditional multi-texturing if they are not combined with the vertex shaders.

The transition to vertex shaders will not be easy. Although Intel and AMD have done good job optimizing vertex shaders, it still means that on every DX7 class 3D accelerator (GF2, Radeon et al) vertex shader content will be transformed and lit with the CPU. Pixel shaders are even more difficult since there are no software fallbacks. If you don't have a DX8 pixel shader compatible hardware (there are none at the shops yet), you can't run any content with pixel shaders.

For game developers, it's also a fairly big content (graphics) development & tech change, moving from fixed function pipeline to pixel shaders (but that's a long story!)."


A good Q&A with Croteam, MadOnion and nVidia, covers many different areas.
 

RoboTECH

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Jun 16, 2000
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MadOnion : Hardware T&L has definitely been the most important feature of 2000

<giggles>

how appropriate that the most profound effect HW T&amp;L had in 2000 was for a synthetic benchmark.

I'm sure the MadOnion guys just love it. :D

that being said, 2001 should see the TRUE emergence of worthwhile T&amp;L, and actually, it already has.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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&quot;2001 should see the TRUE emergence of worthwhile T&amp;L&quot;

Uhhh, yeah.... 50% FPS boost over a GHZ CPU isn't worthwhile, even @1024x768 32bit? I know, I know you don't like looking at actual 2000 games, just benchmarks from 1999;)

You have odd definitions of what you consider worthwhile bud:)

What would you consider worthwhile T&amp;L? The GeForce3's vertex shaders?

&quot;Both of them improves scene quality a great deal. So, I can't really decide. Maybe T&amp;L, just because per-pixel effects are here to simulate some stuff that will be very hard to do with lots of polys.&quot;

From a game developer, just as the comments from MadOnion are(Max Payne is looking sweet, should be shipping in ~four months).
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
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Well I think Hardware T&amp;L is a good idea,shame there`s not many games that use it,anyway as for FSAA I`ve mine disabled I don`t miss it,I run all my games in 1024x768 or above in 32 bit colour.

:)
 

RoboTECH

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Jun 16, 2000
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Uhhh, yeah.... 50% FPS boost over a GHZ CPU isn't worthwhile, even @1024x768 32bit? I know, I know you don't like looking at actual 2000 games, just benchmarks from 1999



name it. I've gotten reductions at higher resolutions using the GTS &quot;Pro&quot; I had with my P3-1012, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I know, I know you don't like looking at actual 2000 games

quite the opposite, that's what I was talking about. 2001 games? Sure, T&amp;L and dot3 have arrived full-force. Maybe very-end of 2000 games also.



 

JellyBaby

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Apr 21, 2000
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I can count the number of games I own that use hardware T&amp;L on one finger. As for the number of titles where I employ FSAA, well, I don't even need fingers for that count.
 

UKtaxman

Senior member
Mar 3, 2001
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I have to say that there are very few games around at the moment that i'd spend my money on! So I think FSAA has had by far the biggest effect on me. T&amp;L I can take or leave, I can't think of any games where it has made a noticeable difference for me.
In fact scrub that I'd say that Kyro's deffered rendering has had the biggest effect on 2000. If only for the fact that every other hardware manufacturer is working like buggery to implement it into their next gfx chip. Something tells me that deffered rendering and HSR will be in every single chip within the year!
 

Bartman

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Oct 9, 1999
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I have a GeForce DDR card but I'm not a Nvidia freek.. I go with who has the best deal at the time.. any way.. T&amp;L..HA.. what T&amp;L I was told over a year ago that it was the rage.. well.. I'm still playing Counter Strike, Q3, and UT and none use the &quot;power&quot; of the T&amp;L unit. what a crock.. by the time some games actually hit the shelf my outdated GF1 is going to be out the pasture!

what a load of BS.. anyone should be able to see that.

Bart
 

lifeguard1999

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2000
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Bah! Humbug!

The best &quot;feature&quot; of the year was the reduction of bandwidth through tile based rendering, hidden surface removal, or whatever other term you want to use. &quot;feature&quot; is in quotes because each card accomplished it in a different fashion.
 

Hawk

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Feb 3, 2000
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Yeah, T&amp;L is still pretty useless, maybe this year we'll actually see some (real) use for it.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Dave-

Old games versus new:) I know, you use FSAA for nearly everything, I have always liked higer res better, particularly with large geometry loads(like I need to tell you that;)).

Robo-

&quot;name it. I've gotten reductions at higher resolutions using the GTS &quot;Pro&quot; I had with my P3-1012, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.&quot;

&quot;quite the opposite, that's what I was talking about. 2001 games? Sure, T&amp;L and dot3 have arrived full-force. Maybe very-end of 2000 games also.&quot;

How about this, find one game nominated by any site for best graphics of 2000 that doesn't utilize hardware T&amp;L:) For everyone you find, I would say I can find five or six that do at least. In fact, I can't think of any 3D game that has come out in the last ~six months that doesn't use hardware T&amp;L.

I posted a link in another thread previously, Rev posted the numbers not me. ~50% boost in FPS in Giants running 1024x768 32bit color compared to his GHZ T-Bird.

Tile based/deferred rendering is NOT NEW:) If you are of the fillrate is king mindset, then it clearly has some major theoretical advantages(although the fastest deferred isn't anywhere near the performance of the fastest traditional).

Bartman-

&quot;I have a GeForce DDR card but I'm not a Nvidia freek.. I go with who has the best deal at the time.. any way.. T&amp;L..HA.. what T&amp;L I was told over a year ago that it was the rage.. well.. I'm still playing Counter Strike, Q3, and UT and none use the &quot;power&quot; of the T&amp;L unit.&quot;

Quake3 does slightly, but other then that every game you listed came out before the GeForce DDR. If you don't buy new games, you aren't ever going to see new rendering techniques used(wth the exception of FSAA or another ~filtering method). Tribes2 has gone gold and will be shipping soon, are you planning on picking that one up? I haven't bought a game in some time that doesn't use T&amp;L, but then again I seem to actually play quite a bit more games then most people on this board(not necessarily spend more time gaming, but play a wider variety of games).

UKTaxman-

&quot;Something tells me that deffered rendering and HSR will be in every single chip within the year!&quot;

Well, every chip already uses at least basic HSR(Z-Buffer). The GF3, in theory at least, has a potentialy very effective form of HSR although it requires application support. It won't match a &quot;tiler&quot;, but it also has several times more power then any deferred in the near future(forseeable for that matter). But, unless you are big into FSAA then we have pretty much reached the limits of monitors. Mine can only go to 1920x1440, and 1600x1200 is the highest resolution I would want to tollerate(the refresh is only at 60Hz at 1920x1440).

PilotronX-

&quot;We want HW raytracing!&quot;

Amen to that:)
 

Finality

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Oct 9, 1999
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<< We want HW raytracing! :) >>



So true, its a pity that after its introduced it will take at least 3 years before games start to use it :(
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Yep, I'd have to agree with Ben on this one. T&amp;L is definitely the way to go. It's a shame the Kyro 2 doesn't have a T&amp;L engine, otherwise it would likely dominate every single benchmark thrown at it.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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I think we're missing the point here, and perhaps it's just my upgrade attitude, but I upgrade when I pick up a game that has the feature I want.

of course, understand, I don't buy $40 games

$30 is my limit. Q3 is one of the only games I've ever spent more than $30 on. I just can't afford it. I have to upgrade my hardware first. <G> I always find myself going back to the &quot;old classics&quot; anyway

I'll go over my buddy's house, play it, and if it blows me away, i'll pick it up

okay, and NHL2001 (d'oh!!! still waiting for the roster update!!)


 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
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<< Serious Sam is supposed to be only $20 >>

Hadn't heard that. That can mean only one thing.... :(
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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I'm afraid it means Suckage Majorous. If it was a &quot;killa&quot; game it would debut at $44+, stay that way for longer than average, then pizzle down at the normal rate and finally hit the bins in 6 months. $20 means they realize it sucks and are compensating by using a low price to stimulate sales.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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I also have to add that tile based rendering (aka Kyro2) will be one of the most important features of 2001. And judging by the results the Kyro2 gets against non-T&amp;L boards, one can only conclude that current T&amp;L implementations aren't as good as everyone says they are.