[HARDOCP] GTA V - The death of Kepler and GCN 1.0

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Feb 19, 2009
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TW3 is impressive, texture quality, model quality etc, but it can do that due to its smaller scope. GTA V is a different beast, so far its the best looking open world game by far. The only other one with as much atmosphere would probably be Sleeping Dogs with max + SSAA. :) Watch Dogs was also very nice on max, but it ran like a dog..

Btw, if those detailed characters in TW3 are in-gameplay screens and not cutscenes, it is definitely setting a new standard.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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Know that there are trade-offs when designing open world games. It's similar to MMOs, in that expecting large scale MMOs to have graphics as fancy as single player games is not realistic, certainly when designed at similar hardware requirements.

Epic scale is a quality of its own.

I know but I judge graphics on their own merits. It's not fair to give MMO or an open-world some unfair handicap just like it's not fair to give a strategy game a handicap against a racing game. There are artistic graphics like Trine 1-3, Limbo or Ori The Blind Forest and there are technical graphics. GTA V falls into technical graphics so naturally it's automatically competing regardless of the genre. I realize that it's harder to make open world games look as good which is why they never look as good as FPS games or smaller 3rd person games. But then I'd argue that TW3 is massive but looks way better than GTA V, so.

TW3 is impressive, texture quality, model quality etc, but it can do that due to its smaller scope.

But TW3 is massive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFfTSs2309k

Those GTA screenshots look better than the Witcher ones.

Thanks for the early April 1, 2016 joke. :thumbsup:

Those TW3 shots aren't impressive.

Right.....so which 3rd person game on the PC looks better? I am waiting for you to name 1. I didn't even tell you to name an open world game, any 3rd person PC game. I hate to admit it but even AC Unity looks better in many places than GTA V does.

GTA V is impressive because two years later with a slight revamp for PC it still impresses.

Maybe its technical graphics impress you but clearly some other people in this thread agree with me that in many places GTA V looks last gen, like it was really designed for last gen consoles. TW3 doesn't look like a game made for XBox 360/PS3.

It's also a massive open world game and if you avoid using ultra grass, it has stellar framerates even on mediocre cards while looking good.

But TW3 doesn't just have ultra grass. It has fur, particle effects, forests, trees that react to wind and rain (!), incredible up close character details that GTA V simply lacks. How did CDPR manage to do all of that? I know how, because the engine and the game was not made to cater to Xbox 360/PS3 generation like GTA V was. That's why TW3 is going to be a way more efficient game and why in your example these few settings in GTA V kill performance without letting the game look next gen though. That's kinda a big problem.

You don't own GTA V so trying to bash it without having seen it in person is pretty funny.

All those youtube videos and 4K in-game screenshots of GTA V are all fake then?

http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-MMO-Monster_Hunter_Online_Benchmark_-cach-GTAV_PC_6.jpg


http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-MMO-Monster_Hunter_Online_Benchmark_-cach-GTAV_PC_4.jpg


Let's compare the cars in GTA V, car handling physics and car details to Project CARS - a next gen PC racing game.

I don't need to own Titan Xs and run GTA V at 4K to be able to see that this is last gen graphics. Since so much in GTA V revolves around car chases and vehicle scenes they couldn't even get car physics and car models right.
http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-MMO-Monster_Hunter_Online_Benchmark_-cach-GTAV_PC_2.jpg


02-gta_ncsz.jpg


vs. next gen PC racing game --> Project CARS in car detail

project-cars-e3-screenshot-9_1404232404.png

projectcars.jpg


GTA V is good for its style of game, but its graphics are nowhere close to amazing but if we dissect the game into parts (its racing componetns, its 3rd person action components, etc.), it's way behind graphically compared to the best looking PC games and especially compared to what's coming out just months away in 2015. By the time we are done with 2015 games like Star wars Battlefront, Project CARS, TW3, GTA V won't look so hot imo.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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GTA V looks awesome, they definitely did a great job with visuals performing well.

Doesn't look good enough for the level of performance it offers. In recent testing TW3 ran Ultra settings on a single 980 at 1080P and the TW3 looks waaaay better than GTA V in uncompressed footage. Since this thread is about GTA V's performance on older vs. newer cars, we shouldn't only discuss that it runs poorly on XYZ cards but also discuss the merits that the game may also suffer from lack of great optimization because it was never made for the PC from the ground-up. It was made for last gen consoles and it's using an outdated game engine. You can't just blame everything on the GPUs here when there are many other PC games that run and look better than GTA V on cards like 780 and 970/R9 290. I guess we have 21 days to wait but I am confident that TW3 will look much better than GTA V on a GTX780 than GTA V looks on the same card. Right now a GTX980 is barely getting 30 fps at 2560x1600 with FXAA in GTA V. Fix that in your mind and let's revisit in 21 days and see just how amazing TW3 will look at 2560x1600 on the same videocard.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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NPC density, world size, visual distance, interactivity and travel speed all influence limits on performance. You are comparing different genres that should not be lumped together.

I understand your points but its examining elements rather than the whole.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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I understand your points but its examining elements rather than the whole.

Going back to HardOCP's review, does anyone have an idea why his performance is so bad compared to all other reviews out there other than the fact that he tested it outside the city? At 1440P and FXAA, R9 290/290X/970/980 are all cripple fest, separated by 6 fps.

He basically says the game is unplayable at 1440P with FXAA on any of these 4 cards:

"Having everything turned on bottlenecks all four video cards easily here. Performance isn't horrible during the beginning bit in the city, but once we get out of the city in the countryside where view distances work best the performance tanks to unplayable levels."

Based on the point you've made above, you said we must consider NPC density, open world, visual distance, etc. but the draw distance in Dying Light is incredible and the graphics are better than in GTA V. Therefore, even if we ignore that GTX980 manages almost 60 fps at Ultra in TW3 at 1080P, Dying Light is more optimized than GTA V is for the level of graphics it has.

dying-light-cpu-performance.png


dying-light-view-distance-002-100-percent.png


2015_02_06_17_09_00.jpg


dying-light-view-distance-screenshot.png


ss-2015-02-04-at-12.34.35.jpg


Dying Light achieves amazing draw distance and still manages to look more realistic and run better. Isn't that more evidence that GTA V is not well optimized compared to other PC games?
 
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escrow4

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2013
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Rockstar already said that are using the highest quality assets in game, and that these were heavily downscaled for coffin gen. Some Gamespot or PCgamer interview. The Witcher III on the other hand is using an engine they built from scratch for Witcher II and its for PC/next gen only. That engine was built simply because there isn't anything out there that can cope with their game mechanics/plot combined with graphics. That said they probably had to limit II for the 360 so hopefully those limitations are removed this time around. If it really is that well optimised for a 980, Kepler should fare equally well.

Then V has to run everything in the background - dozens of AI/pathway NPCs, physics, decals, all the graphical stuff, weather, grass, day/night etc. Will the Witcher III have a freeway with 50 cars casting 50 different shadows? Streets filled with a dozen plus NPCs?
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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@RS

Dying Light has a very aggressive LOD and poor lighting & shadow system. GTA V is much more impressive.

The poor performance in GTA V is associated with grass settings on max and in wilderness scenes. There is a bottleneck there as its disproportionate in IQ vs performance loss. As reviews have shown, it runs amazingly well everywhere with grass settings on high instead.

I suspect its over-tessellation at play in those wilderness scenes, along with high-res shadow + SS for grass on max.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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Review sites are an extension of the IHV's marketing. Of course they are going to tell you that you need the latest cards to play the newest games. You don't actually expect them to tell you to keep what you have because it's good enough.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Review sites are an extension of the IHV's marketing. Of course they are going to tell you that you need the latest cards to play the newest games. You don't actually expect them to tell you to keep what you have because it's good enough.

Not all review sites operate in such manner.

It's well known grass on max + wilderness scene = hammer time on GPUs.

[H] just choose to focus on that more as its the worse case scenario. It definitely bottlenecks all Kepler & GCN 1 more in those scenes.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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Not all review sites operate in such manner.

It's well known grass on max + wilderness scene = hammer time on GPUs.

[H] just choose to focus on that more as its the worse case scenario. It definitely bottlenecks all Kepler & GCN 1 more in those scenes.

Sorry, but IMO all sites work that way. The only exclusions would be a site like S/A that doesn't rely on review samples and doesn't have advertising.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Sorry, but IMO all sites work that way. The only exclusions would be a site like S/A that doesn't rely on review samples and doesn't have advertising.

In the context of your statement that review sites are telling gamers they need the latest & greatest just because they are an extension of marketing.. no, disagree fully (not all sites are shills). Several review sites of GTA V has already shown older & weaker GPUs can handle the game on 60 fps with decent settings.

The only thing special about [H]'s review is they pick the worse case scenario and focus on that.
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
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The Witcher 3 is for sure big and impressive but so is GTA 5. I really don't know why RS keeps going on and on trying to force his opinion down everybody's throat with these long and time consuming posts.

Warning issued for member callout.
-- stahlhart
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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GTA V is a different beast, so far its the best looking open world game by far.

- Is that including Shadow of Mordor?

edit : this is turning out to be a bad thread for me, multiple games just got on the to-buy list .. and I do so not have the time!
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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In the context of your statement that review sites are telling gamers they need the latest & greatest just because they are an extension of marketing.. no, disagree fully (not all sites are shills). Several review sites of GTA V has already shown older & weaker GPUs can handle the game on 60 fps with decent settings.

The only thing special about [H]'s review is they pick the worse case scenario and focus on that.

If you read them long enough even the "good" sites will let you down.
 

iiiankiii

Senior member
Apr 4, 2008
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yeah, GTA V might not look as good as TW3 on a micro scale, but it's still a gorgeous game. If you were to factor in the whole environment, GTA V is much more impressive. GTA V has a very immersive environment. TW3 might be an open world, but it feels much claustrophobic compared to GTA V.
 

redzo

Senior member
Nov 21, 2007
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You need to compare GTA V with Watch Dogs. Those 2 engines are designed to achieve the same goals.
Comparing engines serving different genres is pointless.

GTA V's engine is designed to be able to throw as much ai / objects / diversity at once as possible while achieving consistent performance.

Project Cars's engine does not care about what happens when you fly an helicopter, walking/running around the track, etc.. It does not need to display that.

TW3 looks very different than GTA V and WD. It seems as it is more claustrophobic because it displays less things / stuff happening on screen. So they were able to manage more in the eye candy department.
 
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Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
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They are close but R9 290 is closer to the 970 than it is to the 780 because they can both turn on 1 extra IQ features that 780 cannot.

Both GTX970 and R9 290 can run with high resolution shadows on. The main difference is 780 cannot.

I'm pretty sure the GTX 780 cannot run the highest shadow setting because it only has 3GB of VRAM.

It can run the highest shadow settings, Like I said before I am playing at 2560x1080 with everything maxed including the advanced settings. Only Grass is turned down 1 notch and I'm using 2xAA. The memory allocated says it needs 3.6GB of my 3GB Vram. I disable themes in Windows to free up a little more memory.
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
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@RS You cannot compare smaller play area games with less activity in it to a sprawling open world game.

GTA V looks heck better than Watch Dogs and runs a lot faster with functional CF/SLI on release. That's a tall order given what other AAA titles have been showing us of late on release, bugged to hell.

Know that there are trade-offs when designing open world games. It's similar to MMOs, in that expecting large scale MMOs to have graphics as fancy as single player games is not realistic, certainly when designed at similar hardware requirements.

Epic scale is a quality of its own.
I can attest to this statement. I never owned or played GTA but bought the new GTA V for my new rig below. Really helped that AMD had a profile ready for CF. Runs great with 2 R9 290s at 1440. Won't comment on Witcher because I don't own it.
 
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Face2Face

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2001
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That's why I just rely on YouTube. Search for "GAME_X on GPU_Y" and see how it looks and plays before you buy.

https://youtu.be/3e-BqGlytWA

Nice, kind of looks like GTA 4 :D I'd try to play GTA V on my Core M based tablet, but Core M gaming is extremely handicapped by it's 4.5w threshold. Never mind the 60GB Download...

Back to original topic. I know Brent from [H] frequents our forum now and then, and I'd like to know if he could post a YouTube video of his run. I'm sure most people find these benchmarks a bit "Off" and I'd would like to try and replicate the run myself.

It can run the highest shadow settings, Like I said before I am playing at 2560x1080 with everything maxed including the advanced settings. Only Grass is turned down 1 notch and I'm using 2xAA. The memory allocated says it needs 3.6GB of my 3GB Vram. I disable themes in Windows to free up a little more memory.

I turned off the limits and now can set my Shadows to Very High. It states my VRAM usage should use up to 3.6GB, but in-game my usage never exceeds 3GB, which makes sense. The frame-rate does drop about 10 FPS overall. With Very High Shadow enabled and I honestly cannot see a difference vs. High.
 
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kasakka

Senior member
Mar 16, 2013
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Witcher 3 has far superior hair and fur. The hair and especially beards look terrible in GTA V and even worse if using something other than MSAA for some reason. Otherwise I think it's just different art styles. Neither for example aims for absolute realism in their characters, they are more stylised. Outside cutscenes I haven't seen W3 NPCs looking any better than GTA's really. Some of the random quest peasant models are actually pretty terrible.

GTA V packs an incredible amount of small details in its environments and I haven't seen something like that from the W3 videos yet, the world seems similar to Far Cry 4 that you have points of interest but anything between them doesn't really much going for them. By comparison GTA V (excluding part of the mountains which still looks like what you find in California) has lots of small details throughout its landscapes.

You also have to take into account that GTA V probably has a far more complex physics engine behind it.
 

MTDEW

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
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The Nvidia GTA V guide has been updated to include a workaround to get Ambient Occlusion working.
workaround: change the Ambient Occlusion setting, Apply, change PostFX to Normal, Apply, change PostFX back to Ultra (or its previous value)
LINK