Hangouts and its semi-stealth SMS integration

[Red Storm]

It says "Online" in the status under their name when they are actively in the app. It's not an indication of that they're on their phone or not. I've been actively using my iPhone all day today and when I pull up my convo between my two phones it says my iPhone was last on 5/18/2013. It's not the same kind of online/offline the Gtalk status used to have. Whatsapp isn't a traditional desktop IM app.

Unless your friends are sending 5000 Whatsapp messages back and forth, they're not going to be online all the time. In fact most apps don't show this (Kakao, Kik). So unless your friends are IN Whatsapp at that very moment, when you decide to message them, you're still hoping they unlock their phone and read the message. You get that with Google Hangouts. Essentially it's where we were with G+ Messenger.

I understand that Hangouts is a step back when compared to Gtalk or Whatsapp in terms of showing friends status, but is it a huge issue? I don't think so.

That is the definition of online/offline status. On my Google Talk when I was in the app (or signed into gmail on a desktop) it'd show me online... which is the same thing I've experienced with Whatsapp. I like knowing when someone is active in the app, or when they were last on, you can often use that information to guess whether someone will likely reply quickly or later.

Hangouts also shows online status but it could use a facelift so that it's easily seen even without a profile picture.

Yes big time. Also I need the ability to only show the people I want in contacts (which Talk did). Seriously Hangouts is a big step back from Google Talk, which is what they should have merged everything into.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

That is the definition of online/offline status. On my Google Talk when I was in the app (or signed into gmail on a desktop) it'd show me online... which is the same thing I've experienced with Whatsapp. I like knowing when someone is active in the app, or when they were last on, you can often use that information to guess whether someone will likely reply quickly or later.

I think it's trickier than it sounds. For example, if you have the Gmail labs feature showing Android icons versus circles for desktop chat, there's a Green Android and an Orange Android. You can have a Green Android even if they're not actively in Gtalk. Orange Android doesn't kick in til after their phone goes idle.

Someone orange does't mean they wont respond. If my phone beeps and I'm next to it, I'll respond. There's more than a few friends I just message on orange all the time because I know they will respond to their phone. This whole online/offline status works well for desktops and makes a lot of sense but less so with mobile. In general I'm less likely to respond simply because I'd rather gchat on my computer. I see it more as a desktop chat thing. You might be able to guess like you said whether or not people will respond to their phones, but not all my friends are on their phones every minute such that a status makes sense. Last accessed on Whatsapp is a totally different thing. It's not an indication of whether you are online or not. The orange Android signifies "idle" but just because someone was last on 30 minutes ago on Whatsapp, would you not message them then? Would you consider them unlikely to respond? Using a timestamp makes more sense than lumping them into an Idle group.

Yes big time. Also I need the ability to only show the people I want in contacts (which Talk did). Seriously Hangouts is a big step back from Google Talk, which is what they should have merged everything into.

Anyhow, this gets back to the point I've made before that unifying desktop chat and mobile chat is two different things. It's hard to have a one size fits all solution. Desktop calls for certain features while mobile calls for others.

 

[Red Storm]

If you have the Gmail labs feature showing Android icons versus circles for desktop chat, there's a Green Android and an Orange Android. You can have a Green Android even if they're not actively in Gtalk. Orange Android doesn't kick in til after their phone goes idle.

Someone orange does't mean they wont respond. If my phone beeps and I'm next to it, I'll respond. There's more than a few friends I just message on orange all the time because I know they will respond to their phone. This whole online/offline status works well for desktops and makes a lot of sense but less so with mobile. I'm less likely to respond simply because I'd rather gchat on my computer. I see it more as a desktop chat thing. You might be able to guess like you said, but not all my friends are on their phones every minute such that a status makes sense.

I'd argue that in general most people don't even bother with Android icons on Gchat simply because people on phones are less likely to respond. Similarly people on AIM with a mobile icon I notice people rarely message. The dynamics of a desktop chat are totally different on a phone. Even if I take my group Whatsapp chats which just have crap going through them, they move at a much slower pace than a desktop chat would otherwise.

I don't have that Android icon thing, I just have green and orange circles. I also don't have two distinct modes of chat. Google Talk is the only thing I used on both mobile and desktop, and what device I am using at the time makes absolutely no difference in my chats. I frequently jump from desktop to mobile and back during chats and it's easy and smooth. Whatsapp is pure mobile, but my point is that in WA I have the online and "last seen..." notices, so I can have a pretty good guess as to whether or not someone will reply soon (i.e. someone last seen 8 hours ago most likely won't respond right away compared to someone who is "Online" or was just on a few minutes ago).

If they just took the features of Whatsapp (send photos, audio, and video, online/last seen notices) and fused it into Google Talk, and also integrated Voice it'd be the perfect communication app.

 

[lothar]

What I'm saying is that iMessage is a proactive way of going after SMS. It basically relies on data messages when possible and falling back to SMS only when needed. If you figure most of your friends are iPhone users, then you can cancel SMS.

I'd say having SMS integration is a bigger threat to SMS than having a chat app. Because with a chat app you need to convince your friends to get on that platform. Chat is fragmented as it is, especially in the US where there's no clear cut leader. Carriers can't really justify blocking chat apps.... at least not without creating a big uproar.

Essentially pre iMessage, all of your messages would be routed through SMS/MMS. Now post-iMessage, a bunch of messages that could've previously been forced through SMS/MMS are now data messages. Through integration, it's an immediate drop in the counts of SMS/MMS. I understand your point that there are only unlimited plans, but part of this was due to the huge popularity of SMS/MMS. If the popularity is declining, carriers can't justify unlimited plans. People aren't sending 3000 texts a day now. It's 3000 whatsapp messages instead. There's plenty of people grandfathered, and certainly some who are on pay per use. I'm also certain there could be some people potentially wanting to cancel SMS plans altogether. As SMS starts dropping in popularity, you can bet carriers will have to look for a new method of revenue.

SMS cannot be cancelled on T-Mobile, Sprint, or Verizon share data plans. though so what would be the point of that?

Try arguing to T-Mobile, Sprint, and Verizon share data plans telling them they should give you a discount since you don't use SMS and see how far you get on that issue.

The number of people grandfathered and on pay per use are far fewer.
a) In other to stay grandfathered, you have to pay $600+ out of pocket on Verizon. How many people would do this? I think you're forgetting that America is the land of subsidized phones.
b) Sprint has had unlimited SMS included in all their plans for ages...as long as I can remember within the past 4-5 years, if not longer.
c) T-Mobile has their UNcarrier plan now. I don't think I've ever heard of a case where T-Mobile's "grandfathered" Classic plan was cheaper than UNcarrier. Paying more on a monthly grandfathered "Classic" plan so you can dump unlimited SMS from UNcarrier doesn't make much sense to me. That's like cutting of your nose to spite your face.
d) Not sure what AT&T is doing, but they're the only one left. AT&T shared data is already here, they just aren't forcing people on it yet like Verizon is. Who knows what they will do.

They already have and the US carriers have already responded to that which is why you now see carriers including unlimited SMS on all plans.
This is akin to McDonald's charging for salt packets and later now including unlimited salt packets in the price of all meals.
You can't demand that since you don't use salt on your fries, they should lower the price for you.
Your assertion that the "huge popularity of SMS/MMS" is the reason why only unlimited SMS plans exist now is completely incorrect. If anything, it's the opposite. Unlimited SMS is about the same thing as cable providers bundling a million channels with your subscription when you only need 5-10 is the perfect example I can think off.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

SMS cannot be cancelled on T-Mobile, Sprint, or Verizon share data plans. though so what would be the point of that?

Try arguing to T-Mobile, Sprint, and Verizon share data plans telling them they should give you a discount since you don't use SMS and see how far you get on that issue.

The number of people grandfathered and on pay per use are far fewer.
a) In other to stay grandfathered, you have to pay $600+ out of pocket on Verizon. How many people would do this? I think you're forgetting that America is the land of subsidized phones.
b) Sprint has had unlimited SMS included in all their plans for ages...as long as I can remember within the past 4-5 years, if not longer.
c) T-Mobile has their UNcarrier plan now. I don't think I've ever heard of a case where T-Mobile's "grandfathered" Classic plan was cheaper than UNcarrier. Paying more on a monthly grandfathered "Classic" plan so you can dump unlimited SMS from UNcarrier doesn't make much sense to me. That's like cutting of your nose to spite your face.
d) Not sure what AT&T is doing, but they're the only one left. AT&T shared data is already here, they just aren't forcing people on it yet like Verizon is. Who knows what they will do.

They already have and the US carriers have already responded to that which is why you now see carriers including unlimited SMS on all plans.
This is akin to McDonald's charging for salt packets and later now including unlimited salt packets in the price of all meals.
You can't demand that since you don't use salt on your fries, they should lower the price for you.
Your assertion that the "huge popularity of SMS/MMS" is the reason why only unlimited SMS plans exist now is completely incorrect. If anything, it's the opposite. Unlimited SMS is about the same thing as cable providers bundling a million channels with your subscription when you only need 5-10 is the perfect example I can think off.

First of all I apologize for not knowing how the US carriers are now, but I'm on AT&T so I guess I was stuck in that mindset. Furthermore, my corporate Verizon iPhone 5 which I signed up for in October, was still based on the 450 minute plan and I had to add text and data separately. Therefore I was uninformed about how the current scenario of carrier rape is screwing us over.

But I think we're arguing two different things here. In general, in most parts of the world, SMS is still a feature you can add and remove. What I'm saying is integrating SMS using iMessage is a bigger threat than a standalone app. The dynamics of it being a threat probably change because of what you pointed out. Unlimited SMS being bundled in. If it's already bundled in, then you're trained to think $60 is the price you pay for 2GB data + unlimited texts, or the "smart" portion of your phone. Thus even if we don't use texts, we're trained to think that we have to pay the fee regardless.

However, as long as enough carriers out there (not just in the US) have SMS as a separate add on, then the better we have SMS integration, the less people will want to pay a fortune for SMS.

The point I wanted to make is that as long as there's a dependency on SMS, then carriers will have an excuse to charge us. However, once you remove the dependency, then fewer people will want that feature and to pay extra. I guess in the US that won't really work. Anyway, the US subsidized market is just screwed up. The reason we have unlimited SMS plans forced on us is to justify them charging a fee. Why? Because of phone subsidies. The carriers need to make some money while subsidizing heavily on our phones. So while you still get your $200 handsets like in 2002, your plans need to increase. And I guess the best way to do so is to increase the costs of data and SMS. I wonder why 450 minutes is still $40. Maybe it doesn't work too well to increase that cost instead.

 

[trmiv]

So since I started using Hangouts in Android and Gmail I've noticed one really annoying thing, that is apparently by design. If someone calls my cell, and I don't answer, instead of just going to my Google Voice voicemail immediately like it did before, it will start ringing in Gmail with an option for me to Reject or Answer. What's annoying about it is, the person calling goes from hearing a normal ring to some odd beeping noise with no warning like "Forwarding to Google Voice" or something. While it's cool that calls will forward to Hangouts in gmail for me to answer, the problem is you can't turn this feature off at all. According to this page: https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3144495?hl=en&ref_topic=2944922 the only fix is to revert to the old chat, or sign out of gmail. The problem is, I leave gmail signed in all day on various computers.

 

[cronos]

So since I started using Hangouts in Android and Gmail I've noticed one really annoying thing, that is apparently by design. If someone calls my cell, and I don't answer, instead of just going to my Google Voice voicemail immediately like it did before, it will start ringing in Gmail with an option for me to Reject or Answer. What's annoying about it is, the person calling goes from hearing a normal ring to some odd beeping noise with no warning like "Forwarding to Google Voice" or something. While it's cool that calls will forward to Hangouts in gmail for me to answer, the problem is you can't turn this feature off at all. According to this page: https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/3144495?hl=en&ref_topic=2944922 the only fix is to revert to the old chat, or sign out of gmail. The problem is, I leave gmail signed in all day on various computers.

Well that's strange. Are you saying this happens even if you uncheck forwarding call to Google Chat in the GV setting? I wonder why I haven't noticed this.

 

[trmiv]

Yea I don't have that option checked.

 

[s44]

I guess this means (1) it really will integrate GV, and (2) we're in an annoying transitional period where stuff doesn't fit together properly.

 

[WelshBloke]

I guess this means (1) it really will integrate GV, and (2) we're in an annoying transitional period where stuff doesn't fit together properly.

Number 2 pretty much sums up Google services from the beginning. I'm hoping the current period is going to amalgamate them all

 

[thecapsaicinkid]

The whole fragmented chat issue is seriously starting to piss me off. I now have a single contact who uses Whatsapp. This is now the only reason I have to pick my phone up when at home. On a nice 1080p laptop with a proper keyboard? Oh no, can't communicate here, must fiddle around on a phone instead. Ugh. Technology fail.

 

[Red Storm]

The whole fragmented chat issue is seriously starting to piss me off. I now have a single contact who uses Whatsapp. This is now the only reason I have to pick my phone up when at home. On a nice 1080p laptop with a proper keyboard? Oh no, can't communicate here, must fiddle around on a phone instead. Ugh. Technology fail.

Uh, that's what Hangouts is looking to eliminate.

 

[thecapsaicinkid]

Uh, that's what Hangouts is looking to eliminate.

How is it planning to achieve that if it doesn't interoperate with Whatsapp etc.?

 

[Red Storm]

How is it planning to achieve that if it doesn't interoperate with Whatsapp etc.?

Why stop at Whatsapp? What about AIM? Yahoo? Skype? You could go on and on and list every chat program in the book. What Google is doing is making their communication program hardware/OS independent. You can start a Google conversation on one device, put it down and resume right where you left off on another device. It isn't their job to unite other companies' chat protocols.

 

[thecapsaicinkid]

Why stop at Whatsapp? What about AIM? Yahoo? Skype? You could go on and on and list every chat program in the book. What Google is doing is making their communication program hardware/OS independent. You can start a Google conversation on one device, put it down and resume right where you left off on another device. It isn't their job to unite other companies' chat protocols.

I'm not stopping at Whatsapp. Cross device chat is great, but it only solves half the problem. If I have friends using other products (almost inevitable unless you have few/easily threatened friends) then I STILL have to use my damn phone.

It very much is their (shared) job to unite the platforms. Carriers achieved it with SMS. Until then it's a user experience clusterfuck.

 

[Red Storm]

I'm not stopping at Whatsapp. Cross device chat is great, but it only solves half the problem. If I have friends using other products (almost inevitable unless you have few/easily threatened friends) then I STILL have to use my damn phone.

It very much is their (shared) job to unite the platforms. Carriers achieved it with SMS. Until then it's a user experience clusterfuck.

Or you could ask your friends to switch. I had two friends who weren't on Google Talk compared to all my other friends, and together we got them to change when they eventually realized they were missing out on fun conversations/chats/emails.