Handling in snow -- AWD-4WD etc

[Claudius-07]

I know it's summer now so kind of a weird time to post this but I have been wondering about this for quite some time now.

For the last 8 years, I've been driving an Audi A6 quattro. My wife drives a Mitsubishi RVR (Outlander Sport), my dad always Subaru Outbacks but now has a Jeep. In all cases, some "form" of 4WD-AWD etc.

Now the question relates to an experience I had this past winter. Driving my Audi A6 with Dunlop winter tires. It was a typical snow storm here in Eastern Ontario (Canada), where it had been snowing most of the night, the morning the crews had not cleaned the streets fully, there was some buildup on the road of snow and it had turned to what I can only define as a thick slusshish GREASY mess, cars packing it in etc. No black ice though -- just a mess of snow. By noon it had stopped snowing and was clear and there was still a MESS on the streets especially ones that were not priority.

Now getting traction to accelerate, my Audi with the Quattro and snow tires is a beauty. Same with my wife's Mitsubishi. Braking of course has nothing to do with AWD so i wont even go there.

Now I was driving up a rather large road and about to turn RIGHT on to another large road... no one around me, snow everywhere. The right turn was not a pure right but a gradual, you yield to anyone coming to your left, kind of turn. My Audi simply "4 wheel" drifted all the way across all the lanes as i was veering right. Very gradual, but in all honesty, will little control. No amount of snow tires, Quattro, traction control, ESP, ABS prevented to car from literally drifting over 2 to 3 lanes.

In other words best as I can describe it, I was "planing" over the snow. There was no grip -- or at least it felt like that.

So the final question:
Is this a tire issue? (Better tires, and or "thinner" tires as my 17" snow tires don't "cut" through the snow as well as my wife's car which are not as wide.
Better AWD system? I've noted that some cars now advertise "torque vectoring" or something similar as part of their AWD systems. My wife's Mitsubishi has the AWC version but lacks their top end SAWC which from what I can tell, has a form of the torque vectoring or distribution.
Bad snow... nothing you can do other than stud tires or drive a tank
Bad driver... ok ok..

 

[NutBucket]

I'm not experienced in snow but to me it sounds like a simple case of driving too fast.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, there's nothing AWD can do about too much side force for the available grip.

 

[pauldun170]

I'm not experienced in snow but to me it sounds like a simple case of driving too fast.

Agreed,
Unless the road was sloped or there was a huge ice patch in the middle of the turn it sounds like either entry speed or poor throttle control through the turn was the issue. Operator error.

Northeast driver for over 20 years. Learned winter driving in GM G body cars with the cheapest used tires a teenager could afford.
Currently tackle NY weather in a non-abs\TC\SC fwd car with all seasons in a hilly neighborhood.

 

[olds]

Driving too fast

 

[unokitty]

Is this a tire issue? (Better tires, and or "thinner" tires as my 17" snow tires don't "cut" through the snow as well as my wife's car which are not as wide.
Better AWD system? I've noted that some cars now advertise "torque vectoring" or something similar as part of their AWD systems. My wife's Mitsubishi has the AWC version but lacks their top end SAWC which from what I can tell, has a form of the torque vectoring or distribution.
Bad snow... nothing you can do other than stud tires or drive a tank
Bad driver... ok ok..

Each car has a certain amount of control which is directly related to the friction that it can generate. When you exceed that, you slide. Whether you slide out of control or in control is a function of experience.

When I had my Miata, I learned about friction circles at a performance driving class that I took at Sebring. The class was an interesting experience for me. When your driving limits are set by the laws of physics rather than by the presence of law enforcement, your perspective changes.

Just a thought. If you have the opportunity to take a performance driving class, I suspect that, like me, you would learn a lot. If you could use your own car, that would help as well.

Best of luck,
Uno

 

[_Rick_]

Put on some chains, and you're dandy.

 

[smackababy]

I am on on board the "driving too fast" boat.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Studded Tires >= Chains > Snow Tires > All Seasons in good shape > Worn Snow Tires > Worn All Seasons > Summer Tires > Slicks

AWD/FWD/RWD/4WD may help a bit, but, the friction between the car and the road is everything. I have only really really run into a situation where I would have been screwed without AWD one time, an that was on a mountain in Pennsylvania during a snowstorm... without AWD, I likely would not have even considered trying the "alternate route" when the interstate was shut down due to crashes by the tunnel. (note: ALternate route fail, there was a big 10+ car pileup at the bottom of a hill with all lanes blocked, thus, pulled a U turn on the hill and my AWD helped me to re-ascend. passed several FWD cars who were moving between backwards and about 1 mph in little spurts who were trying to get back up. I just crept back up around 10mph or so careful to not hit anyone and never lost any traction.

 

[JulesMaximus]

You either hit ice or you were driving too fast. Actually, in either case you were driving too fast.

You're lucky there was no traffic coming the opposite direction.

 

[HitAnyKey]

If your car is drifting then your tires are not doing their job because your either going too fast or they are not the right ones for your driving pattern. Don't forget about air pressure too.

I would suggest practicing in a parking lot. Bring another 100lbs in Kitty litter/ Sand/whatever and put it in the trunk and compare. Find your car's limits. The extra weight some people prefer in deep snow.

AWD is great for deep snow and hills. But when your drifting then AWD isn't going to do anything. That is a clear message your tires are not griping.

 

[bruceb]

All cars will do that to some extent. When I drive in snow, I anticipate the turns way in advance and have learned over time, that you must put in steering inputs very gradually. If you try to turn like you are on dry pavement, the car will get tail happy.

 

[TheNewGuy]

I agree with going to fast. Not sure if you're aware, but if you want to upgrade to studded tires, they are legal here in Ontario.

 

[Claudius-07]

Thanks folks. Yup I would admit it was a bit too fast for sure. Probably the reason I did allow it to go a bit faster than normal was that simply there was no one for miles but I never anticipated the full slip or plane. Yah I really do need to actually take a performance or proper defensive driving course. I have taken many for my motorcycles, track days, etc., but have always taken my cage for granted. A to B. TheNewGuy I had NO idea Ontario allowed studs!! You sure? I thought only up in Northern Ontario. Our winters in the Ottawa area are bad enough but honestly I would need studs for maybe like 2-3 days in the worst of the winter when we get those nasty ice storms. Anyhow thanks folks!

 

[olds]

I got my license at 16 when I lived at Lake Tahoe. I used to practice sliding the car and regaining control in parking lots, after hours.
Took my driving test in the winter with snow covered streets.

 

[desy]

Yes its a crime Ontario doesn't allow studded tires.
Really the best, but sometimes there is no magic no matter what you are driving

 

[NutBucket]

They don't allow studs because of the costs of repaving streets every few years.

 

[TheNewGuy]

Thanks folks. Yup I would admit it was a bit too fast for sure. Probably the reason I did allow it to go a bit faster than normal was that simply there was no one for miles but I never anticipated the full slip or plane. Yah I really do need to actually take a performance or proper defensive driving course. I have taken many for my motorcycles, track days, etc., but have always taken my cage for granted. A to B. TheNewGuy I had NO idea Ontario allowed studs!! You sure? I thought only up in Northern Ontario. Our winters in the Ottawa area are bad enough but honestly I would need studs for maybe like 2-3 days in the worst of the winter when we get those nasty ice storms. Anyhow thanks folks!

I'm in Northern Ontario...I thought they were legal everywhere. guess I was wrong, sorry about that.

 

[TheNewGuy]

They don't allow studs because of the costs of repaving streets every few years.

The irony of that is that up here, the roads are torn apart by the frost and we have potholes in potholes...

Dave

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

You were driving too fast for that turn given the road conditions.
Winter driving requires planning ahead and lots of anticipation. No sudden, last minute veering like most of the jacka*ses here do.

Dallas is interesting in the winter - it's like the circus literally came to town, except that most of the clowns can kill you

 

[desy]

Well if you drive on Ice and I do, daily, in prairie winters its the best but I can see in TO it would only be occasionally worth it.
I'd argue more road damage comes from overloaded trucks than studs though and that's where ruts actually come from

 

[NutBucket]

The irony of that is that up here, the roads are torn apart by the frost and we have potholes in potholes...

Dave

Sounds like LA....minus the frost part