Israeli tanks are designed for crew survival, due to the placement of armor. Won't beat M1A2, but perfect for urban combat.
Leon
Leon
- Dec 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
I'd wager that it is because of the emotions flying around the region in general. People are too quick to dismiss said claims or justify them simply because of what 'side' they are on. From a Utilitarian standpoint though, anything that Hamas can use as a weapon they will, and Israel has more to lose by not giving aid then by giving aid. Hopefully this insanity will stop, but I'm doubtful that any meaningful peace will happen in my lifetime.
I know what you mean. Not giving them aid Israel would get themselves into a lot of hot water with the internat'l community. (continued below)
No, it's true, I'm outraged at all the grenades the Pals use and weapons they produce, instead of using their resources and abilities to produce a better life for their own people and those around them. But there's something about the use of medicine bottles that clearly illustrates a point that perhaps some of us already knew: there's a flagrant cynical disregard for human life, morals, and decency by these Hamas people and their supporters and there's no red line that's too sacrosanct for them to cross. With coke bottle grenades it might just be more subtle.
But the flagrancy of this, transforming the very medicine containers -- provided by Israel as humanitarian aid to their people -- into weapons, is just shocking and gives one pause to consider how to respond to them.
Especially in light of the fact that Hamas in Gaza was elected by popular vote in a landslide election, by a majority of Gazans, with the openly stated intent, in violation of internat'l law, of violently destroying Israel and wiping its people off the face of the Earth.
- Dec 27, 2006
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Nice hyperbole. Of course, if you read carefully, I never said definitively that they shouldn't get medicine. My OP was a question, why should Israel continue giving aid. And I think it's a valid question, and not synonomous with going and killing them, which you imply.
When the Gazans -- through a landslide popular election of Hamas -- have chosen the course of violently wiping Israel off the map and killing all its people, why should Israel aid such people in any way? Especially in light of the flagrant lack of regard for human decency and showing appreciation or reverence to humanitarian gestures, as demonstrated by the transformation of these medicine bottles given by Israel into weapons? I mean, consider what you would do if your enemy gave you humanitarian supplies or medicine or food or blankets. Even if it were your hated enemy, wouldn't you have some regard for the human decency shown in the gesture, and treat such items as somewhat sacrosanct?
Don't forget the surrounding facts -- the glorification of suicide bombers, the ubiquitous teaching of Palestinian children in official Palestinian schools and textbooks that Israel is the enemy that must be destroyed, dressing up little children as suicide bombers -- the Gazan Palestinians are a people that is galvanized to do but one thing, and that one thing is not to improve life for the Palestinian people. That one thing is to destroy Israel and massacre all of its people, even if it means sacrificing the Palestinian people in the process. And it is not a few extremists. It is by popular vote, a landslide of electoral opinion in Gaza.
Now, there may be political reasons why it behooves Israel to continue its humanitarian aid to Gaza, just as there may be some plurality of people in Gaza who are not dedicated to the massacre of Israelis. I never said with 100% certainty that Israel should stop giving humanitarian aid. But I am asking, in light of the above: you tell me why Israel should be giving humanitarian aid to the people dedicated to its destruction and the massacre of its people.
- Dec 27, 2006
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Believe me, it's not silly. There's numerous, numerous examples I can give of major newsworthy pieces of information simply absent from the New York Times, CNN, BBC, or any other Western (and by Western, I include European [that's addressed to you, JohnOfSheffield]) news source.
For example, how about the Gazans passing out candy and celebrating in the streets after 9/11? Perhaps Americans would find that newsworthy? Completely absent from any Western paper to my knowledge, and I looked for it. We wouldn't want to do anything that biases public opinion against the Palestinians now would we? That could discourage the "even-handedness" that we need so that we don't harm the fragile "peace process." :disgust:
Also, from your words, it sounds like you hear the accusation all the time that the western media is pro-Israel. I would be careful -- a great many people accusing the western media of such say it in terms of the lie that the Western media is controlled and run by Jews, along with many Western governments. That slander is classic anti-Semitism and is an example of the big lie which has been ubiquitous throughout history in the anti-Jewish slanders, that Jews are running the government behind the scenes, that they're standing there waiting to stab us in the back, etc. It was used in post-WWI Germany, was used in France during the Dreyfus affair to explain why France lost the war, the Jews poisoned the wells in medieval Germany, France, England, and Prussia, etc. etc. etc. It's been used again and again and again, and continues to be touted openly by many Arab governments that the reason the US supports Israel is because Jews are running the political process and the news outlets behind the scenes. It's a big, ugly lie, and it's anti-Semitism.
Now, just to make clear, I am not accusing you of being anti-Semitic. I am saying to be careful with your sources and by whom you are being influenced. You may feel that with enough people claiming that Western governments and Western news outlets are run by Jews, there must be some measure of truth to it. And that's the psychology behind why the "big lie" works -- even if it doesn't convince people that the scapegoat actually poisoned all those wells or sabotaged the war effort, they start to believe some of it. After all, millions of people can't all be wrong, and nobody could make up such a big lie.
- Dec 27, 2006
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1) Of course I don't hold disgust for any process towards peace.
2) Do you honestly believe in withholding information in order to not "bias" public opinion? That's the very definition of bias -- to present an incomplete picture so as to arrive at a predetermined conclusion.
3) I attempted to not stereotype, as evidenced by my mentioning above of the likelihood of a plurality of Palestinians who do not support violently destroying Israel and its people. However, the landslide election and a strong national referendum in support of Hamas is a strong statement of where the large majority of Gazans stand.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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You are mangling the definition of bias. No one can present a complete picture of reality, only our subjective perspective of it, and only what parts we deem relevant enough to mention before others.
That said, calling grenades made out of empty pill bottles as "medicine bombs" is biased towards convincing people to deny Gazens medicine by disregarding the fact that such grenades could be made from a wide assortment of other containers. Furthermore, our media could be reporting far more relevant information which it rarely ever mentions, like Israel's long standing denial of Palestinians' rights under international law; as affirmed by the International Court of Justice, and the vast majority of the world though UN General Assembly votes dating back decades, but as constantly vetoed by our US government in the Security Counsel. Also, our media's characterization of of Hamas election victory as a "landslide" stands in flagrant contradiction to the fact that they won by less than 30k votes across nearly a million voters. Do you not have any concern for such facts?
Pretty smart of Hamas to come up with a device like that, including "advanced wireless detonators". I wonder if the gangs in U.S have capabilities like that
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