hamas founder on cnn

[da loser]

they asked him whether israel has a right to exist, whether they accept a two state solution, will tehy renounce terrorism, and if the cutoff of money is a problem.

he basically avoided every question and spewed some nonsense. Looks like they're well on their way to being democratic politicians :thumbsup:

it'll be interesting to see what they plan to do. i'm not sure if his reluctance to agree or disagree is a good or bad thing. it might indicate two-faced nature of talking in one hand, while doing something else, stalling, etc. or they are debating what to do.

hard to say since i haven't listened to their speeches attentively before. so i'll say it's the two-faced kind.

 

[Lemon law]

The world now has a hell of a problem-----do we embrace a free and fair election or just pretend we are not dealing with what happens when you destroy the political middle ground as we have in the Israelie Palistinian conflict. You have the Israelies using Nazi like repression tactic that they have been gettinng away with for years because they have better press. The Palisinians continue to lose ground as Israel makes them third class citizens in the land of their birth.

Any Palistinian moderation has been met with greater Israelie repression and a stalemate Israel is winning.------so they finally elect Hamas with terrorist roots----and now we are going to have to deal with it-----so will will pobably try the Ostrich strategy---stick our head in a hole and pretend it did not happen-----by saying Hamas is a terrorist organization---------instead of using it for a wake up call that if the world does not defuse this crisis we will soon be in greater problems as the mideast is a
real volitile powder keg.

Has any stopped to consider what happened in Ireland---where the IRA did get civilian representation
and a 300 year old insurgency is now greatly defused------and a relative peace now reigns.

 

[tommywishbone]

I like the guy. And remember, no matter what he does, he is correct in his actions, because he was elected via the democratic process. All hail whateverhisnameis!

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
what happens when you destroy the political middle ground as we have in the Israelie Palistinian conflict.

I don't agree with every thing you said but the part I quoted is:
QFT

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The world now has a hell of a problem-----do we embrace a free and fair election or just pretend we are not dealing with what happens

We accept that they are the fairly elected leaders of Palestine, we cut all aid, we sever diplomatic ties and wait to see if they are stupid enough to bring the millitants into the army and attack Israel as a state on state conflict in which they will lose BADLY.

They can elect anyone they want into office, but if they elect terrorists they lose access to US taxpayer money and diplomacy. I have a BIG problem with any taxpayer money going to a group of terrorists (they are on the official list).

There absolutely MUST be consequences for a state electing terrorists into power. Whatever the result of this leads to (civil war, destabilization and starvation, etc..) is a direct result of the vote, the people are responsible for that and they must suffer the consequences of it.

If we fail to apply these consequences we will set a very bad example, on the par of the example we set in lebanon when we fled because of a suicide bombing of the barracks, which has resulted in the extensive use of suicide bombing from then on.

 

[tommywishbone]

The second the US pulls financial support, Iran will step in with their own $$$.

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: tommywishbone
The second the US pulls financial support, Iran will step in with their own $$$.

 

[sandorski]

Before doing anything rash like cutting off Funds or starting up a Blockade, it would be wise to wait and see what they do. It's not like they've gained enough power to suddenly be an increased threat. Who knows, they may Moderate considerably.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Before doing anything rash like cutting off Funds or starting up a Blockade, it would be wise to wait and see what they do. It's not like they've gained enough power to suddenly be an increased threat. Who knows, they may Moderate considerably.

I don't understand... why is it that every conciliatory move has to be made by Israel or the USA. We've played enough games with these people.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The world now has a hell of a problem-----do we embrace a free and fair election or just pretend we are not dealing with what happens

We accept that they are the fairly elected leaders of Palestine, we cut all aid, we sever diplomatic ties and wait to see if they are stupid enough to bring the millitants into the army and attack Israel as a state on state conflict in which they will lose BADLY.

They can elect anyone they want into office, but if they elect terrorists they lose access to US taxpayer money and diplomacy. I have a BIG problem with any taxpayer money going to a group of terrorists (they are on the official list).

There absolutely MUST be consequences for a state electing terrorists into power. Whatever the result of this leads to (civil war, destabilization and starvation, etc..) is a direct result of the vote, the people are responsible for that and they must suffer the consequences of it.

If we fail to apply these consequences we will set a very bad example, on the par of the example we set in lebanon when we fled because of a suicide bombing of the barracks, which has resulted in the extensive use of suicide bombing from then on.

Good post. :thumbsup:

Hamas needs to renounce terrorism and work to promote the Palestinian people through peaceful means. If they do not do this, then the entire Palestinian state is a terrorist organization, and must be dealt with as such. If the Palestinian people elect, by landslide, terrorists into power, what else can you do?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The world now has a hell of a problem-----do we embrace a free and fair election or just pretend we are not dealing with what happens

We accept that they are the fairly elected leaders of Palestine, we cut all aid, we sever diplomatic ties and wait to see if they are stupid enough to bring the millitants into the army and attack Israel as a state on state conflict in which they will lose BADLY.

They can elect anyone they want into office, but if they elect terrorists they lose access to US taxpayer money and diplomacy. I have a BIG problem with any taxpayer money going to a group of terrorists (they are on the official list).

There absolutely MUST be consequences for a state electing terrorists into power. Whatever the result of this leads to (civil war, destabilization and starvation, etc..) is a direct result of the vote, the people are responsible for that and they must suffer the consequences of it.

If we fail to apply these consequences we will set a very bad example, on the par of the example we set in lebanon when we fled because of a suicide bombing of the barracks, which has resulted in the extensive use of suicide bombing from then on.

Good post. :thumbsup:

Hamas needs to renounce terrorism and work to promote the Palestinian people through peaceful means. If they do not do this, then the entire Palestinian state is a terrorist organization, and must be dealt with as such. If the Palestinian people elect, by landslide, terrorists into power, what else can you do?

Cutting off aid not do that at all though, we are just trying to set them up to fail.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: sandorski
Before doing anything rash like cutting off Funds or starting up a Blockade, it would be wise to wait and see what they do. It's not like they've gained enough power to suddenly be an increased threat. Who knows, they may Moderate considerably.

I don't understand... why is it that every conciliatory move has to be made by Israel or the USA. We've played enough games with these people.

Because, and this is important, we want a positive solution to this conflict. If they aren't willing to take the first steps in this, we have to. It would be easy to sink to their level, and just kill everyone. And I do mean that the way it sounds, they wouldn't even have a chance of surviving a straight up fight. Not a prayer.

But here's the thing, part of who we are involves being the bigger person, as my mom was always fond of saying. It doesn't matter if they're resisting doing things this way, we have to try until there is no other possible option left. Not because we like to "play games", but because it's who we are. Dave Barry, a very amusing humor writer, said after 9/11 that we do things this way because, for all our flaws, we are good people. And he's right, what makes our country great is that we willingly wear these handcuffs, even if the other guys won't.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: sandorski
Before doing anything rash like cutting off Funds or starting up a Blockade, it would be wise to wait and see what they do. It's not like they've gained enough power to suddenly be an increased threat. Who knows, they may Moderate considerably.

I don't understand... why is it that every conciliatory move has to be made by Israel or the USA. We've played enough games with these people.

Because, and this is important, we want a positive solution to this conflict. If they aren't willing to take the first steps in this, we have to. It would be easy to sink to their level, and just kill everyone. And I do mean that the way it sounds, they wouldn't even have a chance of surviving a straight up fight. Not a prayer.

But here's the thing, part of who we are involves being the bigger person, as my mom was always fond of saying. It doesn't matter if they're resisting doing things this way, we have to try until there is no other possible option left. Not because we like to "play games", but because it's who we are. Dave Barry, a very amusing humor writer, said after 9/11 that we do things this way because, for all our flaws, we are good people. And he's right, what makes our country great is that we willingly wear these handcuffs, even if the other guys won't.

But then we're stuck on this merry-go-round. Israelis give up something for the promise of peace... Palestinians agree... then 2 months later the terrorist acts start up again. Then they give up something else... Palestinians agree... and 2 months later the terrorist acts start up again. And so on, and so forth, ad nauseam. We compromise, and compromise, and compromise... until we've compromised everything.

It is these people's stated goal to have ALL of Israel. All the deals they make, and made with the notation of "for now"... as in "we are patient and we will take all of it, little by little". As long as this is how they "negotiate", I don't believe there can be any real agreement. After all, do you really want to negotiate with a man who says: "Ok, give me some of your land and money today, and I won't kill your family for one more day".

If they don't recognize Israel's right to exist, then how can anyone talk about agreements. The only way it's going to work is if the two sides sit down under the assumption that they recognize each other's right to live.

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: sandorski
Before doing anything rash like cutting off Funds or starting up a Blockade, it would be wise to wait and see what they do. It's not like they've gained enough power to suddenly be an increased threat. Who knows, they may Moderate considerably.

I don't understand... why is it that every conciliatory move has to be made by Israel or the USA. We've played enough games with these people.

I agree, one of the favorite games played with those people was , "Take my land, kick me out, and call me a terorrist !", God that game is so popular, I might go and rent it tonight

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The world now has a hell of a problem-----do we embrace a free and fair election or just pretend we are not dealing with what happens

We accept that they are the fairly elected leaders of Palestine, we cut all aid, we sever diplomatic ties and wait to see if they are stupid enough to bring the millitants into the army and attack Israel as a state on state conflict in which they will lose BADLY.

They can elect anyone they want into office, but if they elect terrorists they lose access to US taxpayer money and diplomacy. I have a BIG problem with any taxpayer money going to a group of terrorists (they are on the official list).

There absolutely MUST be consequences for a state electing terrorists into power. Whatever the result of this leads to (civil war, destabilization and starvation, etc..) is a direct result of the vote, the people are responsible for that and they must suffer the consequences of it.

If we fail to apply these consequences we will set a very bad example, on the par of the example we set in lebanon when we fled because of a suicide bombing of the barracks, which has resulted in the extensive use of suicide bombing from then on.

Good post. :thumbsup:

Hamas needs to renounce terrorism and work to promote the Palestinian people through peaceful means. If they do not do this, then the entire Palestinian state is a terrorist organization, and must be dealt with as such. If the Palestinian people elect, by landslide, terrorists into power, what else can you do?

Cutting off aid not do that at all though, we are just trying to set them up to fail.

Let Hamas act responsible as a government and aid can continue.
Act like a terror organization and we should terminate aid.
I would suspect that most other Western Aid givers will act similar.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Several of you are posting out of total ignorance. Hamas has indeed espoused and supported terrorism BUT it is also arguably the most effective humanitarian organization in the West Bank and Gaza.

I believe their current "offer" is about a truce if Israel returns to its lawful pre-1967 border and releases Palestinian criminals/terrorists held in Israel. Obviously, neither condition is likely forthcoming.

On the flipside, the approach of the US and Israel is pretty retarded. Fatah has a CLEAR militant wing (Al Aqsa), yet we (USA) gave millions upon millions every year. Hamas isn't any different except for this whole issue about "recognizing" Israel. Who gives flying flip?! Israel ain't going anywhere but it will be a cold day in Tahiti before MANY Muslim/Arab states "recognize" Israel. It's not even an issue worth discussion.

There is one more difference between Fatah and Hamas. Fatah was hopelessly corrupt from top to bottom. The Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, and Europeans ALL knew it yet did nothing about it. Finally, the Palestinians did what all good people do when their leadership sux. They replaced them.

Regardless, the battle of "preconditions" will produce nothing except more time for bad things to happen.

 

[fornax]

There is little doubt that once in government, Hamas will be more moderate. One needs just to look at their election campaign, where anti-Israeli rhetoric was muted and they emphasized corruption and mismanagement by Fatah. I even think they were somewhat surprised by the win and didn't anticipate that they'll have to rule and manage the big mess in the occupied territories. They said before the election that they'd like some ministries, mostly health/welfare/etc, and didn't want to handle diplomacy and overall management.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Let Hamas act responsible as a government and aid can continue.
Act like a terror organization and we should terminate aid.
I would suspect that most other Western Aid givers will act similar.

And therein lies the key, they haven't done it. We should terminate aid. We need to start living up to what we say. We don't support terrorist organizations, Hamas is on the official list. Either they need to be off the list or we need to cut aid. Period. There shouldn't even be disscussion about this. Either take them off the list or cut aid to the palestinians as they are now in control.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Several of you are posting out of total ignorance. Hamas has indeed espoused and supported terrorism BUT it is also arguably the most effective humanitarian organization in the West Bank and Gaza.

I believe their current "offer" is about a truce if Israel returns to its lawful pre-1967 border and releases Palestinian criminals/terrorists held in Israel. Obviously, neither condition is likely forthcoming.

On the flipside, the approach of the US and Israel is pretty retarded. Fatah has a CLEAR militant wing (Al Aqsa), yet we (USA) gave millions upon millions every year. Hamas isn't any different except for this whole issue about "recognizing" Israel. Who gives flying flip?! Israel ain't going anywhere but it will be a cold day in Tahiti before MANY Muslim/Arab states "recognize" Israel. It's not even an issue worth discussion.

There is one more difference between Fatah and Hamas. Fatah was hopelessly corrupt from top to bottom. The Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, and Europeans ALL knew it yet did nothing about it. Finally, the Palestinians did what all good people do when their leadership sux. They replaced them.

Regardless, the battle of "preconditions" will produce nothing except more time for bad things to happen.

Agree. While reading your post a question popped into my head: Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? If not, why should Palestinians recognize Israels?

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: da loser
he basically avoided every question and spewed some nonsense. Looks like they're well on their way to being democratic politicians :thumbsup:

LOL! So he behaved like Scott McClellan?

 

[her209]

Let's say this scenario occurs:

Hamas does not renounce violence, wants Israel destroyed instead. US pulls funds from Palestine. Iran steps in with funds. Israel pre-emptively attacks the West Bank in the name of self-defense. What happens next?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: her209
Let's say this scenario occurs:

Hamas does not renounce violence, wants Israel destroyed instead. US pulls funds from Palestine. Iran steps in with funds. Israel pre-emptively attacks the West Bank in the name of self-defense. What happens next?

Israel will not pre-empt an attack without provocation;

I would suspect that if such serious provocations increase in intensity start to happen and are tied to Hamas in some form or another; it would be a bulldoze attack against selected areas.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Let Hamas act responsible as a government and aid can continue.
Act like a terror organization and we should terminate aid.
I would suspect that most other Western Aid givers will act similar.

And therein lies the key, they haven't done it. We should terminate aid. We need to start living up to what we say. We don't support terrorist organizations, Hamas is on the official list. Either they need to be off the list or we need to cut aid. Period. There shouldn't even be disscussion about this. Either take them off the list or cut aid to the palestinians as they are now in control.

they sort of have an entire people as hostages ..if you think about it..its a little more complicated than just bailing..imagine if something horrific happened to them without the aid and the blame our country would get

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: sandorski
... Does Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? If not, why should Palestinians recognize Israels?

If Israel did not tactictly acknowledge the right of the Palestinians to exists they woudl have destroyed the PLO and the "camps" a long time ago. Probably ater the '73 conflict.

The UN Mandates stated two seperate states; it was the Arab nations and then Palestinian leadership(s) that want it all.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Let Hamas act responsible as a government and aid can continue.
Act like a terror organization and we should terminate aid.
I would suspect that most other Western Aid givers will act similar.

And therein lies the key, they haven't done it. We should terminate aid. We need to start living up to what we say. We don't support terrorist organizations, Hamas is on the official list. Either they need to be off the list or we need to cut aid. Period. There shouldn't even be disscussion about this. Either take them off the list or cut aid to the palestinians as they are now in control.

Now that Hamas is on the inside rather that the agitator on the outside; they have to show that they can act as a responsible government leadership.

After Arafat was out of the picture; the PLO was given the chance to show they were different;

Let Hamas have that chance to; however, not as long as a period and under a closer microscope.