Halo 3 Natively runs at 640p?

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: gtsing
The good-looking output image depends on the resolution...unless you're just a noob and can't tell the difference between 480i and 720p/1080p.

Most everyone can tell the difference between 480i and 720p. Telling the difference between 640p and 720p is a little more difficult unless you take pictures and start counting pixels like Beyond3D did.

They obviously dipped the resolution a bit to make sure the frame rates stayed solid.

Alternatively, they wanted to fit in some special effects (perhaps AA or some other post processing effects) into the limited framebuffer of the 360 (~10MB) and had to drop resolution to do it.

since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers

And there's your answer.

BTW, it's rendering at 80% of the resolution of 720p. While that does suck that they used a lower resolution, it's not a big deal imo. Most HDTVs won't natively display 720p as 720p anyway, and TVs are generally geared more toward color accuracy (which is what bungie ultimately limited the resolution to improve) and not precision and clarity.

I think they made the right choice, and as much as I would like higher resolutions, they focused on the aspect that people will notice more. There's not a huge difference in quality anyway, and most people are probably still playing on sdtvs. It's not like this is a PC game we're talking about, and even 720p is low res compared to pc resolutions. Most people game at at least 1280x1024, and 720p is 70% of that res, and 1280x1024 is practically considered low resolution on PCs.

 

[BD2003]

Although scaling is always going to make the image look a little bit shit, the vast, vast majority of TVs are either 768p, 1080i or 1080p, which require scaling anyway.

TVs are generally geared more toward color accuracy (which is what bungie ultimately limited the resolution to improve) and not precision and clarity.

Thats nonsense. The LCD screen, the most popular type of HDTV, has the worst color and black level reproduction out of any display technology. It does have the perfect pixel clarity though - as long as youre running at the native res, which will rarely ever happen for any source at with a "720p" (aka 768p) LCD.

CRT HDs look great, but are low res. DLPs are actually the only display tech that use true 720p. Plasmas have screwy resolutions (like 1024x768 widescreen with rectangular pictures), but at least decent colors.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Although scaling is always going to make the image look a little bit shit, the vast, vast majority of TVs are either 768p, 1080i or 1080p, which require scaling anyway.

TVs are generally geared more toward color accuracy (which is what bungie ultimately limited the resolution to improve) and not precision and clarity.

Thats nonsense. The LCD screen, the most popular type of HDTV, has the worst color and black level reproduction out of any display technology. It does have the perfect pixel clarity though - as long as youre running at the native res, which will rarely ever happen for any source at with a "720p" (aka 768p) LCD.

CRT HDs look great, but are low res. DLPs are actually the only display tech that use true 720p. Plasmas have screwy resolutions (like 1024x768 widescreen with rectangular pictures), but at least decent colors.

I said TVs for a reason and not monitors.

How many LCD tvs have you seen with pixel perfect clarity? Most use low quality scalers to scale to some oddball resolution, and I'd say they're more accurate to color reproduction than image clarity in that case.
Component video is also the most common hd connection type still, and it was designed to be capable of providing extra color bandwidth, should the hardware be capable of it. Component does not guarantee pixel perfect accuracy however (still a scanline based transmission, not pixel based right?), but usually comes close enough anyway.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: BD2003
Although scaling is always going to make the image look a little bit shit, the vast, vast majority of TVs are either 768p, 1080i or 1080p, which require scaling anyway.

TVs are generally geared more toward color accuracy (which is what bungie ultimately limited the resolution to improve) and not precision and clarity.

Thats nonsense. The LCD screen, the most popular type of HDTV, has the worst color and black level reproduction out of any display technology. It does have the perfect pixel clarity though - as long as youre running at the native res, which will rarely ever happen for any source at with a "720p" (aka 768p) LCD.

CRT HDs look great, but are low res. DLPs are actually the only display tech that use true 720p. Plasmas have screwy resolutions (like 1024x768 widescreen with rectangular pictures), but at least decent colors.

I said TVs for a reason and not monitors.

How many LCD tvs have you seen with pixel perfect clarity? Most use low quality scalers to scale to some oddball resolution, and I'd say they're more accurate to color reproduction than image clarity in that case.
Component video is also the most common hd connection type still, and it was designed to be capable of providing extra color bandwidth, should the hardware be capable of it. Component does not guarantee pixel perfect accuracy however (still a scanline based transmission, not pixel based right?), but usually comes close enough anyway.

If LCD TVs were fed a 1:1 pixel ratio, even at oddball 768p, they would have perfect pixel clarity.

But even considering scaling, color reproduction is still worse on ANY TV. Theyre rarely close to calibrated 6500K, have outrageous red/green pushes, oversaturated/sharpened out of the box, etc. This goes for every type of TV. TVs are made to stand out on the showroom floor, not look good at home.

Its amazing the lengths you have to go to just to get close to getting the picture to look "as it should", and pixel accuracy is probably the simplest of problems (assuming you have control over it, on an HTPC for instance).

Its a matter of opinion which are more off, because theyre both off and you can't really quantify it, but to say that ANY tv is intended to have any sort of color accuracy is absurd, why they go out of their way (Ex. red push) to throw it off.

 

[KlokWyze]

Off topic from the few previous posts, but...

Halo 2, graphically, on the original Xbox looks REALLY REALLY good. I think they kind of screwed themselves on the jump from 2 to 3. Even with the considerably faster & more versatile hardware, the game looks significantly better, but it wasn't a big leap.

The textures/detail of everything is beautiful, but when everything is in motion it all looks a little janky. Not really bad, but it's noticable.

 

[purbeast0]

who freaking cares. it's like the people complaining about the 16:9 mode in bioshock.

people love to just complain for the sake of complaining.

 

[jdoggg12]

There're more important things in life to be worried about than a game "screwing" you out of 80p which you'll never really notice anyway. People need to stop whining about the minutia and just play the f-ing game. If you want to play for the resolution, but a $3k+ PC and go to town, otherwise just enjoy the gameplay on the WELL ABOVE AVERAGE looking game!

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
who freaking cares.

People who aren't Microsoft's bitch. Normal people resent being lied to and cheated.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: purbeast0
who freaking cares.

People who aren't Microsoft's bitch. Normal people resent being lied to and cheated.

Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

 

[Yreka]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: purbeast0
who freaking cares.

People who aren't Microsoft's bitch. Normal people resent being lied to and cheated.

How's that toenail catalog coming ?

 

[blurredvision]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: purbeast0
who freaking cares.

People who aren't Microsoft's bitch. Normal people resent being lied to and cheated.

Actually, I can understand if people feel lied to, since they put 720p/1080i/1080p on the back of the box. I don't think that just because the 360 can scale to any resolution means they need to put that on the back of every box. However, cheated is a bit strong of a word, and doesn't apply in this situation.

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

You can find over 100,000 Xbox 360 FAQs that state that their games are at least 720p or better.

Do all Xbox 360 games support high definition?
Yes, all original Xbox 360 games must support at least 720p.

http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Graphics+FAQ?t=anon

 

[nycxandy]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

You can find over 100,000 Xbox 360 FAQs that state that their games are at least 720p or better.

Do all Xbox 360 games support high definition?
Yes, all original Xbox 360 games must support at least 720p.

http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Graphics+FAQ?t=anon

Do you have a 360 and Halo 3?

 

[bucwylde23]

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

You can find over 100,000 Xbox 360 FAQs that state that their games are at least 720p or better.

Do all Xbox 360 games support high definition?
Yes, all original Xbox 360 games must support at least 720p.

http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Graphics+FAQ?t=anon

Do you have a 360 and Halo 3?

I don't think he does, as most people who hate halo 3 have never played it.

 

[nycxandy]

Originally posted by: chrisg22

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

You can find over 100,000 Xbox 360 FAQs that state that their games are at least 720p or better.

Do all Xbox 360 games support high definition?
Yes, all original Xbox 360 games must support at least 720p.

http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Graphics+FAQ?t=anon

Do you have a 360 and Halo 3?

I don't think he does, as most people who hate halo 3 have never played it.

Then he needs to STFU as the ones who do have and enjoy it don't have complaints about it.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom

Originally posted by: jdoggg12


Who lied and how did they "cheat"?

You can find over 100,000 Xbox 360 FAQs that state that their games are at least 720p or better.

Do all Xbox 360 games support high definition?
Yes, all original Xbox 360 games must support at least 720p.

http://www.wikixbox360.com/page/Graphics+FAQ?t=anon

I've never seen where it states it has to be native though. Supporting and being native are not the same.

 

[BladeVenom]

If your going to make that argument then I can say DVDs support high definition since my monitor can upscale them.

MS said their games support 720p or better, not that their console could upscale to high definition.

Would anyone here consider Wii games high definition if they are upscaled by the monitor, or if Nintendo put an upscaler in their console?

 

[nycxandy]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
If your going to make that argument then I can say DVDs support high definition since my monitor can upscale them.

MS said their games support 720p or better, not that their console could upscale to high definition.

Would anyone here consider Wii games high definition if they are upscaled by the monitor, or if Nintendo put an upscaler in their console?

If you don't have Halo 3, stop complaining please.

 

[EvilComputer92]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
If your going to make that argument then I can say DVDs support high definition since my monitor can upscale them.

MS said their games support 720p or better, not that their console could upscale to high definition.

Would anyone here consider Wii games high definition if they are upscaled by the monitor, or if Nintendo put an upscaler in their console?

Of course not, and the same applies to MS. Bungie and MS clearly did "lie" until the issue was put straight into their face, in which case they downplayed losing 184320 pixels, refering to it as "80p". This wouldn't be as much of a problem if most TVs ran at 1280x720, but they don't. They go from 1366x768 to as high as 1920x1080. As you keep going higher, the upscaled resolution starts to look heavily pixelized or blurry.

In the scope of what they did with the rest of the game, I'm not going to keep touching on it as as a major issue, but it certainly is an issue, even though Bungie would have you believe that it is nothing at all.

 

[jdoggg12]

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
If your going to make that argument then I can say DVDs support high definition since my monitor can upscale them.

MS said their games support 720p or better, not that their console could upscale to high definition.

Would anyone here consider Wii games high definition if they are upscaled by the monitor, or if Nintendo put an upscaler in their console?

If you don't have Halo 3, stop complaining please.

+1

Unless i had my 1080p 37" TV hooked up next to an identical setup, there's no way i'd say the game isn't fully 720p. It looks THAT good. Its less jaggy/stuttery than just about all the other 360games i've seen.

They stated why they went with that resolution, and it paid off well. The HDR works amazingly. But I guess people have to bitch and whine about something, right? Especially if it's trivial, that makes it better to whine about... "OMGWTFBBQSauce!!! I'm missing 80p!!! I'm selling my 360 b/c i'm getting screwed!!!!"

 

[EvilComputer92]

Originally posted by: jdoggg12

Originally posted by: nycxandy

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
If your going to make that argument then I can say DVDs support high definition since my monitor can upscale them.

MS said their games support 720p or better, not that their console could upscale to high definition.

Would anyone here consider Wii games high definition if they are upscaled by the monitor, or if Nintendo put an upscaler in their console?

If you don't have Halo 3, stop complaining please.

+1

Unless i had my 1080p 37" TV hooked up next to an identical setup, there's no way i'd say the game isn't fully 720p. It looks THAT good. Its less jaggy/stuttery than just about all the other 360games i've seen.

They stated why they went with that resolution, and it paid off well. The HDR works amazingly. But I guess people have to bitch and whine about something, right? Especially if it's trivial, that makes it better to whine about... "OMGWTFBBQSauce!!! I'm missing 80p!!! I'm selling my 360 b/c i'm getting screwed!!!!"

It's because you wouldn't know what the game would look like on full 1280x720. Jaggy and Stuttery? Go play Burnout Revenge if you want to know what the meaning of smooth is. And give me a break about the HDR, because it looks like it was ripped straight out of Perfect Dark Zero.

Once again, the thing that saves this game GRAPHICALLY is it's amazing level design on nearly every map.

 

[BD2003]

I'd say at the end of the day, the fact that it supposedly has 1080p on the box, yet doesnt even come close to supporting it, is a bit bigger of a deal than it actually being 640p instead of 720p.

But honestly, there are much better ways to get around performance issues than upscaling from a lower resolution and introducing scaling artifacts. Its not like 480p/480i where there's overscan and they can get away with reducing the res without the majority of people noticing because their screen covers it up. To have your TV scale a scaled image...yuck.

Drop your monitor res one notch below native, and then tell me you dont notice the difference. Imagine that blurriness twice over.

Yeah I know, they say it looks great, you cant tell the difference, yada yada. Just saying its a pretty sloppy way to get artificially boost performance. Why stop at 640p? Might as well go down to 560p next year, then 480p the year after. If theyre gonna claim HD, they should at least adhere to the standards, regardless of whether or not they claim youll notice or not. Theyd be better off disabling vsync IMO.

<720p is not considered HD. Its ridiculous that most TVs are a stupid 1366x768 and force scaling in the first place, but they shouldnt be adding even more to the problem.

 

[EvilComputer92]

Originally posted by: BD2003
I'd say at the end of the day, the fact that it supposedly has 1080p on the box, yet doesnt even come close to supporting it, is a bit bigger of a deal than it actually being 640p instead of 720p.

But honestly, there are much better ways to get around performance issues than upscaling from a lower resolution and introducing scaling artifacts. Its not like 480p/480i where there's overscan and they can get away with reducing the res without the majority of people noticing because their screen covers it up. To have your TV scale a scaled image...yuck.

Drop your monitor res one notch below native, and then tell me you dont notice the difference. Imagine that blurriness twice over.

Yeah I know, they say it looks great, you cant tell the difference, yada yada. Just saying its a pretty sloppy way to get artificially boost performance. Why stop at 640p? Might as well go down to 560p next year, then 480p the year after. If theyre gonna claim HD, they should at least adhere to the standards, regardless of whether or not they claim youll notice or not. Theyd be better off disabling vsync IMO.

<720p is not considered HD. Its ridiculous that most TVs are a stupid 1366x768 and force scaling in the first place, but they shouldnt be adding even more to the problem.

QFT. Where did that stupid 1366x768 resolution come from anyway? If everything else is 1280x720, why make TVs with that kind of resolution? upscaling an already upscaled image is just beyond stupid, and I can't believe Bungie didn't think about this.

 

[nace186]

Originally posted by: EvilComputer92
QFT. Where did that stupid 1366x768 resolution come from anyway? If everything else is 1280x720, why make TVs with that kind of resolution? upscaling an already upscaled image is just beyond stupid, and I can't believe Bungie didn't think about this.

Uh...there's a lot of TV maker that make tv with 1366x768 resolution, Panasonic, samsung, sony, etc...


and the reason? from google:

"The reason 1366x768 has been used instead of 1280x720 is the existing 1024x768 4:3 "VGA"-style PC standard, which is a common LCD monitor resolution (particularly for 15" flat panels)

If you take 1024x768 and scale it to 16:9, you end up with 1366x768, effectively retainining the same image height and just adding an extra 2:9 strip each side of the existing 12:9 image (aka 4:3)

I think the logic is that some PC software is optimised for 1024x768 screens - so retaining that height and adding more columns horizontally retains this compatibility. Reducing the image height by adopting 720 rows - which is not a common 4:3 resolution format - would be more of a problem."

And I think it's mainly due to cost. It's much easier to convert existing factory to manufacture lcd with 1366x768 then building a new factory to create lcd with resolution 1280x720.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: EvilComputer92
QFT. Where did that stupid 1366x768 resolution come from anyway? If everything else is 1280x720, why make TVs with that kind of resolution?

I've heard a bunch of explanations. Its derivative of 1024x768. 1366x768 is very close to 1 megapixel. Its easier to scale to from all other resolutions. The most convincing explanation Ive heard - most people think more is better, so 768>720, therefore, 768 is better, and if everyone else's panel is 768p, you'd better be making 768p as well.

upscaling an already upscaled image is just beyond stupid, and I can't believe Bungie didn't think about this.

I'm sure they did - its one of those things that makes the A/V nerd inside me shudder, but since everyone is used to a scaled image, they probably wouldnt notice a scaled scaled image.