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Halo 3 fans...

bob4432

Lifer
i rented the game yesterday and played for about 20mins, and the gameplay feels mediocre at best. does one need to have played the old halos to enjoy this new one? scenery is ok, to me about on par w/ far cry and i game on a 720p lcd where all my other 360 games look excellent, so it is not my setup.

not trying to start a flame war but w/ as much press as the game gets/got and the fact that ms made a special edition 360 just for it, i feel possibly i am missing something that one of the halo 3 peeps can help me out with...

kind of wondering what the hype is all about. again, no disrespect as i know different strokes for different folks, but could somebody explain why it is deemed so good?

thank i advance,
bob
 
Knowing the back story helps a lot. So if you had played 1 and 2 you would probably enjoy it more. I also think co-op is the best part of the Halo campaigns, so try to play with someone else if possible. Also, I think Halo 3 does indeed start out slowly, but the game gets better as it goes along. In short, at least try to play co-op and for longer than 20 mins before writing it off.
 
Yes, there is lots of things that I find wrong with it that ruin the game for me:
I've been up playing it a few nights but personally I find a lot of the modes to be bullshit..

Juggernaut.. --- who the f*ck dreamed this shit up? an invisible character.. that's just asking to make it hard/impossible.. at least they should just make the juggernaut character glow or be normal with some kind of other special attribute other than being invisible.

ball mode --- it would be much better if you could shoot while having the ball.

that stupid terrirtory/flag game --- who the hell made that? stupid idea.. there should be no offense/defense.. it should be offense/defense all the time, whoever ends up with the most flags at the end wins, if someone obtains a flag, you should be able to steal it at the same time.

Also-- who made this "press x to party up" that's the most retarded thing ever.. it should be "press x if you want to quit this party" not "hey we're gonna auto-kick you if you don't press x"

In addition - who the hell made it so you couldn't pick EXACTLY what mode you want to play? that's a stupid idea too.


Personally, I find it so flawed and it could be so much better in just about every way. I think that whoever was dreaming up these aspects of the game up was not too bright.

What happened to the days of having a server list with the type of game listed and the ping next to it? I need more complex features in an online game.. I feel like it was programmed so any retard could mash buttons and end up in a server no matter what.

Keep in mind after reading my post, that I'm new to the halo series, I have never played halo online, and hardly played halo 1 or 2 at all. This is strictly my view from being introduced to the game series.


In addition to this, my cousin and I played legendary co-op and beat it in 12 hours. That was ok.. but I would almost pay to see anyone beat legendary in single player.. it's basically impossible just like the achievements in guitar hero 2.. lol
 
Originally posted by: nboy22
Yes, there is lots of things that I find wrong with it that ruin the game for me:
I've been up playing it a few nights but personally I find a lot of the modes to be bullshit..

Juggernaut.. --- who the f*ck dreamed this shit up? an invisible character.. that's just asking to make it hard/impossible.. at least they should just make the juggernaut character glow or be normal with some kind of other special attribute other than being invisible.

ball mode --- it would be much better if you could shoot while having the ball.

that stupid terrirtory/flag game --- who the hell made that? stupid idea.. there should be no offense/defense.. it should be offense/defense all the time, whoever ends up with the most flags at the end wins, if someone obtains a flag, you should be able to steal it at the same time.

Also-- who made this "press x to party up" that's the most retarded thing ever.. it should be "press x if you want to quit this party" not "hey we're gonna auto-kick you if you don't press x"

In addition - who the hell made it so you couldn't pick EXACTLY what mode you want to play? that's a stupid idea too.


Personally, I find it so flawed and it could be so much better in just about every way. I think that whoever was dreaming up these aspects of the game up was not too bright.

What happened to the days of having a server list with the type of game listed and the ping next to it? I need more complex features in an online game.. I feel like it was programmed so any retard could mash buttons and end up in a server no matter what.

Keep in mind after reading my post, that I'm new to the halo series, I have never played halo online, and hardly played halo 1 or 2 at all. This is strictly my view from being introduced to the game series.


In addition to this, my cousin and I played legendary co-op and beat it in 12 hours. That was ok.. but I would almost pay to see anyone beat legendary in single player.. it's basically impossible just like the achievements in guitar hero 2.. lol

1. Juggernaut I agree is lame.

2. It balances it out when the person holding the ball cannot shoot, but the melee is a 1 hit kill.

3. I agree the offense/defense territory is kind of lame, it's better when you just have to control a point and it can be lost back to the other team.

4. If you press B you exit the lobby. You press X to join up with others. If everyone leaves and you don't stay, you will be booted back to the lobby. Don't see whats so complicated about that.

5. You can pick the game you want to play - create your own. Why they don't have a public server list of custom games boggles my mind however.

And the OP .. you played it for 20 minutes. That is hardly anything at all. And I will admit the first 2 levels are fairly slow, but picks up big time at the beginning of level 3.
 
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: nboy22
Yes, there is lots of things that I find wrong with it that ruin the game for me:
I've been up playing it a few nights but personally I find a lot of the modes to be bullshit..

Juggernaut.. --- who the f*ck dreamed this shit up? an invisible character.. that's just asking to make it hard/impossible.. at least they should just make the juggernaut character glow or be normal with some kind of other special attribute other than being invisible.

ball mode --- it would be much better if you could shoot while having the ball.

that stupid terrirtory/flag game --- who the hell made that? stupid idea.. there should be no offense/defense.. it should be offense/defense all the time, whoever ends up with the most flags at the end wins, if someone obtains a flag, you should be able to steal it at the same time.

Also-- who made this "press x to party up" that's the most retarded thing ever.. it should be "press x if you want to quit this party" not "hey we're gonna auto-kick you if you don't press x"

In addition - who the hell made it so you couldn't pick EXACTLY what mode you want to play? that's a stupid idea too.


Personally, I find it so flawed and it could be so much better in just about every way. I think that whoever was dreaming up these aspects of the game up was not too bright.

What happened to the days of having a server list with the type of game listed and the ping next to it? I need more complex features in an online game.. I feel like it was programmed so any retard could mash buttons and end up in a server no matter what.

Keep in mind after reading my post, that I'm new to the halo series, I have never played halo online, and hardly played halo 1 or 2 at all. This is strictly my view from being introduced to the game series.


In addition to this, my cousin and I played legendary co-op and beat it in 12 hours. That was ok.. but I would almost pay to see anyone beat legendary in single player.. it's basically impossible just like the achievements in guitar hero 2.. lol

1. Juggernaut I agree is lame.

2. It balances it out when the person holding the ball cannot shoot, but the melee is a 1 hit kill.

3. I agree the offense/defense territory is kind of lame, it's better when you just have to control a point and it can be lost back to the other team.

4. If you press B you exit the lobby. You press X to join up with others. If everyone leaves and you don't stay, you will be booted back to the lobby. Don't see whats so complicated about that.

5. You can pick the game you want to play - create your own. Why they don't have a public server list of custom games boggles my mind however.

And the OP .. you played it for 20 minutes. That is hardly anything at all. And I will admit the first 2 levels are fairly slow, but picks up big time at the beginning of level 3.

I'm glad you agree with most of my points.. the lobby thing confuses me.. like in normal online games it's a server that's always running that people can join/quit freely.. maybe it's not the best idea to design halo 3 like that, but I have a really hard time telling what's going on because everyone leaves after a game..

and with point 5. I know you can create your own so you can choose.. but like you said, shouldn't we be able to pick someone else's game mode DIRECTLY from a server list? Really stupid design.
 
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: nboy22
Yes, there is lots of things that I find wrong with it that ruin the game for me:
I've been up playing it a few nights but personally I find a lot of the modes to be bullshit..

Juggernaut.. --- who the f*ck dreamed this shit up? an invisible character.. that's just asking to make it hard/impossible.. at least they should just make the juggernaut character glow or be normal with some kind of other special attribute other than being invisible.

ball mode --- it would be much better if you could shoot while having the ball.

that stupid terrirtory/flag game --- who the hell made that? stupid idea.. there should be no offense/defense.. it should be offense/defense all the time, whoever ends up with the most flags at the end wins, if someone obtains a flag, you should be able to steal it at the same time.

Also-- who made this "press x to party up" that's the most retarded thing ever.. it should be "press x if you want to quit this party" not "hey we're gonna auto-kick you if you don't press x"

In addition - who the hell made it so you couldn't pick EXACTLY what mode you want to play? that's a stupid idea too.


Personally, I find it so flawed and it could be so much better in just about every way. I think that whoever was dreaming up these aspects of the game up was not too bright.

What happened to the days of having a server list with the type of game listed and the ping next to it? I need more complex features in an online game.. I feel like it was programmed so any retard could mash buttons and end up in a server no matter what.

Keep in mind after reading my post, that I'm new to the halo series, I have never played halo online, and hardly played halo 1 or 2 at all. This is strictly my view from being introduced to the game series.


In addition to this, my cousin and I played legendary co-op and beat it in 12 hours. That was ok.. but I would almost pay to see anyone beat legendary in single player.. it's basically impossible just like the achievements in guitar hero 2.. lol

1. Juggernaut I agree is lame.

2. It balances it out when the person holding the ball cannot shoot, but the melee is a 1 hit kill.

3. I agree the offense/defense territory is kind of lame, it's better when you just have to control a point and it can be lost back to the other team.

4. If you press B you exit the lobby. You press X to join up with others. If everyone leaves and you don't stay, you will be booted back to the lobby. Don't see whats so complicated about that.

5. You can pick the game you want to play - create your own. Why they don't have a public server list of custom games boggles my mind however.

And the OP .. you played it for 20 minutes. That is hardly anything at all. And I will admit the first 2 levels are fairly slow, but picks up big time at the beginning of level 3.

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.

So you can honestly say as a gamer, you're completely satisfied with every aspect of the online and offline? I understand that legendary is not impossible on single player or else they wouldn't have bothered.. but I'd much rather have a game that you can play through rather than sit on the same spot for 3 hours before moving on. Makes the game a lot more fun to play.
 
Originally posted by: mugs
Just wait until you have to drive!

/runs and hides

I'm sure he has the mental capacity to figure out the simple driving scheme.

/throws down a bubble shield

 
Originally posted by: nboy22
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.

So you can honestly say as a gamer, you're completely satisfied with every aspect of the online and offline? I understand that legendary is not impossible on single player or else they wouldn't have bothered.. but I'd much rather have a game that you can play through rather than sit on the same spot for 3 hours before moving on. Makes the game a lot more fun to play.

i can say im 100% satisfied with halo 3, legendary took me about 9 hours on solo, it is pretty hard, and i dont recomend starting on it, but its fun, its not diff then halo 1 on legendary

halo 2 on legendary was about as close to impossiable as you can get, it was still dooable tho
 
The game is terribly fun with co-op. I ended up playing a few hours longer than I wanted to yesterday because I was having a blast with my little cousin. Personally, people will say that CoD4 stole H3's party system/matchmaking - but CoD4 is lightyears beyond that. H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.
 
Originally posted by: Newfie
Originally posted by: mugs
Just wait until you have to drive!

/runs and hides

I'm sure he has the mental capacity to figure out the simple driving scheme.

/throws down a bubble shield

I have the mental capacity to figure it out, but I don't have to like it 😛
 
Originally posted by: dreadpiratedoug
H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.

Sounds like you have NAT problems. Google Halo 3 and NAT and see what you come up with.....

Am I the only one that prefers the Halo matchmaking system to having to search a fucking list of servers? I love choosing what I want, and having everything else done for me. I can't stand looking for servers, it always devolves into the choice between trying to join almost full server constantly getting "server full" messages are a few seconds of connection time or joining a server with few players hoping more people will join. In Halo, you pick what gametype you want, and you hit go. With Halo 2, you had absolutely no problems getting put into a match within 30 seconds for 3 years. With Halo 3, it should be the same.

Of course, I say this with the last few online PC games I played being stuff like BF2, where the server list was horribly broken and buggy.
 
Originally posted by: nboy22
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.

So you can honestly say as a gamer, you're completely satisfied with every aspect of the online and offline? I understand that legendary is not impossible on single player or else they wouldn't have bothered.. but I'd much rather have a game that you can play through rather than sit on the same spot for 3 hours before moving on. Makes the game a lot more fun to play.

You bitch at little things that you're not used to. I've played the hell out of Halo 1 (solo, co-op, and XBC), Halo 2 (solo, co-op, and many many hours on Live). It's what I'm used to, and the changes made are for the better. Not everyone likes every game type, it's just personal preference.

And Legendary is "3 hours on the same spot" hard because it's the most difficult difficulty. What part of that is puzzling exactly? 😕 Seriously? If you want "more fun to play", play it on Heroic. Beat it in XX hours and was thoroughly enjoyable. Or play Legendary on co-op.

BTW, not trying to completely bash you. This is what Halo is about, that's all. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: nboy22
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.

So you can honestly say as a gamer, you're completely satisfied with every aspect of the online and offline? I understand that legendary is not impossible on single player or else they wouldn't have bothered.. but I'd much rather have a game that you can play through rather than sit on the same spot for 3 hours before moving on. Makes the game a lot more fun to play.

You bitch at little things that you're not used to. I've played the hell out of Halo 1 (solo, co-op, and XBC), Halo 2 (solo, co-op, and many many hours on Live). It's what I'm used to, and the changes made are for the better. Not everyone likes every game type, it's just personal preference.

And Legendary is "3 hours on the same spot" hard because it's the most difficult difficulty. What part of that is puzzling exactly? 😕 Seriously? If you want "more fun to play", play it on Heroic. Beat it in XX hours and was thoroughly enjoyable. Or play Legendary on co-op.

BTW, not trying to completely bash you. This is what Halo is about, that's all. 🙂

I understand that's the way it might've been since point #1.. but as a student attending a gaming college, I would have designed the game much, much differently.

It seems that the designers were lacking an overall design of being able to have a server list.

I've also heard halo 2 is much harder on legendary.

From a design aspect, I would have made the game modes much differently for online. I mean that capture the flag mode is the most basic game possible and they really managed to screw it up (at least in my view). It would have been much better with defense and offense in the same round of play, would make the game a lot more fun and interesting.

Don't get me wrong or anything.. going to a gaming school, I am introduced to games every day that I could change for the better. Every game has something wrong with it that can be improved.
 
Originally posted by: nboy22
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Originally posted by: nboy22
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH

His "gripes" aren't even worth replying too. Just feeding the fire.

My only reply to him is that Legendary by yourself isn't impossible...just time consuming.

So you can honestly say as a gamer, you're completely satisfied with every aspect of the online and offline? I understand that legendary is not impossible on single player or else they wouldn't have bothered.. but I'd much rather have a game that you can play through rather than sit on the same spot for 3 hours before moving on. Makes the game a lot more fun to play.

You bitch at little things that you're not used to. I've played the hell out of Halo 1 (solo, co-op, and XBC), Halo 2 (solo, co-op, and many many hours on Live). It's what I'm used to, and the changes made are for the better. Not everyone likes every game type, it's just personal preference.

And Legendary is "3 hours on the same spot" hard because it's the most difficult difficulty. What part of that is puzzling exactly? 😕 Seriously? If you want "more fun to play", play it on Heroic. Beat it in XX hours and was thoroughly enjoyable. Or play Legendary on co-op.

BTW, not trying to completely bash you. This is what Halo is about, that's all. 🙂

I understand that's the way it might've been since point #1.. but as a student attending a gaming college, I would have designed the game much, much differently.

It seems that the designers were lacking an overall design of being able to have a server list.

I've also heard halo 2 is much harder on legendary.

From a design aspect, I would have made the game modes much differently for online. I mean that capture the flag mode is the most basic game possible and they really managed to screw it up (at least in my view). It would have been much better with defense and offense in the same round of play, would make the game a lot more fun and interesting.

Don't get me wrong or anything.. going to a gaming school, I am introduced to games every day that I could change for the better. Every game has something wrong with it that can be improved.

It was part of their design not to have a server list. Its something that made the game unique since Halo 2.

There is a 2 flag ctf mode not just offense/defense.
 
Annoying things about the game

Dedicated Servers, Why oh WHY couldn't you put some in Bungie if we are paying for XBL, at least the issues of standbying and a bad host would go away.

A Custom Game Browser, Is it really that hard to implement so I can search for some fun games to play when my friends are in matchmaking? You can leave matchmaking as it is, but a custom game browser would really be useful

It's nothing unique, it's a stupid idea to not have these things that bring down an otherwise excellent game.
 
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: dreadpiratedoug
H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.

Sounds like you have NAT problems. Google Halo 3 and NAT and see what you come up with.....

Am I the only one that prefers the Halo matchmaking system to having to search a fucking list of servers? I love choosing what I want, and having everything else done for me. I can't stand looking for servers, it always devolves into the choice between trying to join almost full server constantly getting "server full" messages are a few seconds of connection time or joining a server with few players hoping more people will join. In Halo, you pick what gametype you want, and you hit go. With Halo 2, you had absolutely no problems getting put into a match within 30 seconds for 3 years. With Halo 3, it should be the same.

Of course, I say this with the last few online PC games I played being stuff like BF2, where the server list was horribly broken and buggy.

Not the NAT - my NAT is setup perfectly fine, have no problems in other games. Sometimes it just seems to take awhile ... maybe cause of that fuckin pre-load screen, who knows.
 
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: dreadpiratedoug
H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.

Sounds like you have NAT problems. Google Halo 3 and NAT and see what you come up with.....

Am I the only one that prefers the Halo matchmaking system to having to search a fucking list of servers? I love choosing what I want, and having everything else done for me. I can't stand looking for servers, it always devolves into the choice between trying to join almost full server constantly getting "server full" messages are a few seconds of connection time or joining a server with few players hoping more people will join. In Halo, you pick what gametype you want, and you hit go. With Halo 2, you had absolutely no problems getting put into a match within 30 seconds for 3 years. With Halo 3, it should be the same.

Of course, I say this with the last few online PC games I played being stuff like BF2, where the server list was horribly broken and buggy.

Personally I too prefer the matchmaking, however, I don't like the matchmaking in Halo 3. The team slayer playlist is full of shotty sniper games. I prefered when they had sniping seperate in Halo 2 than team slayer. Also there is definitely something wrong w/the matchmaking system when from personal experience, 90% of the time the first randomly selected choice is veto'ed.

Honestly the only people complaining about not being able to select a server are those who are just used to gaming on the PC. I've never heard someone who hasn't really played PC games much before online complain about it.

I just do not understand why they don't implement it though, and then allow you to make your own custom games searchable, private, or friends only. Gears of War did it pretty nicely in that aspect.

But if I only could choose one, I'd definitely continue the matchmaking. I just want it tweaked 🙂
 
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: dreadpiratedoug
H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.

Sounds like you have NAT problems. Google Halo 3 and NAT and see what you come up with.....

Am I the only one that prefers the Halo matchmaking system to having to search a fucking list of servers? I love choosing what I want, and having everything else done for me. I can't stand looking for servers, it always devolves into the choice between trying to join almost full server constantly getting "server full" messages are a few seconds of connection time or joining a server with few players hoping more people will join. In Halo, you pick what gametype you want, and you hit go. With Halo 2, you had absolutely no problems getting put into a match within 30 seconds for 3 years. With Halo 3, it should be the same.

Of course, I say this with the last few online PC games I played being stuff like BF2, where the server list was horribly broken and buggy.

Personally I too prefer the matchmaking, however, I don't like the matchmaking in Halo 3. The team slayer playlist is full of shotty sniper games. I prefered when they had sniping seperate in Halo 2 than team slayer. Also there is definitely something wrong w/the matchmaking system when from personal experience, 90% of the time the first randomly selected choice is veto'ed.

Honestly the only people complaining about not being able to select a server are those who are just used to gaming on the PC. I've never heard someone who hasn't really played PC games much before online complain about it.

I just do not understand why they don't implement it though, and then allow you to make your own custom games searchable, private, or friends only. Gears of War did it pretty nicely in that aspect.

But if I only could choose one, I'd definitely continue the matchmaking. I just want it tweaked 🙂

Yes, If I could have one I would also choose matchmaking. But why can't I have both? One for Ranked games and the other for Custom Games that people have made with their own settings?
 
Originally posted by: EvilComputer92
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: dreadpiratedoug
H3 takes me 15 minutes to get into a freakin matchmaking game, with over 500k people online.

Sounds like you have NAT problems. Google Halo 3 and NAT and see what you come up with.....

Am I the only one that prefers the Halo matchmaking system to having to search a fucking list of servers? I love choosing what I want, and having everything else done for me. I can't stand looking for servers, it always devolves into the choice between trying to join almost full server constantly getting "server full" messages are a few seconds of connection time or joining a server with few players hoping more people will join. In Halo, you pick what gametype you want, and you hit go. With Halo 2, you had absolutely no problems getting put into a match within 30 seconds for 3 years. With Halo 3, it should be the same.

Of course, I say this with the last few online PC games I played being stuff like BF2, where the server list was horribly broken and buggy.

Personally I too prefer the matchmaking, however, I don't like the matchmaking in Halo 3. The team slayer playlist is full of shotty sniper games. I prefered when they had sniping seperate in Halo 2 than team slayer. Also there is definitely something wrong w/the matchmaking system when from personal experience, 90% of the time the first randomly selected choice is veto'ed.

Honestly the only people complaining about not being able to select a server are those who are just used to gaming on the PC. I've never heard someone who hasn't really played PC games much before online complain about it.

I just do not understand why they don't implement it though, and then allow you to make your own custom games searchable, private, or friends only. Gears of War did it pretty nicely in that aspect.

But if I only could choose one, I'd definitely continue the matchmaking. I just want it tweaked 🙂

Yes, If I could have one I would also choose matchmaking. But why can't I have both? One for Ranked games and the other for Custom Games that people have made with their own settings?

I really am surprised that w/all the feedback they took from Halo 2 fans and listened to fix it in Halo 3 that they did not add in a feature like that.
 
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Personally I too prefer the matchmaking, however, I don't like the matchmaking in Halo 3. The team slayer playlist is full of shotty sniper games. I prefered when they had sniping seperate in Halo 2 than team slayer. Also there is definitely something wrong w/the matchmaking system when from personal experience, 90% of the time the first randomly selected choice is veto'ed.

Honestly the only people complaining about not being able to select a server are those who are just used to gaming on the PC. I've never heard someone who hasn't really played PC games much before online complain about it.

I just do not understand why they don't implement it though, and then allow you to make your own custom games searchable, private, or friends only. Gears of War did it pretty nicely in that aspect.

But if I only could choose one, I'd definitely continue the matchmaking. I just want it tweaked 🙂

I wasn't aware of that, I would prefer if it was separate. I hate shotty snipers because I hate sniping - I suck at it and have no desire to try and improve. Maybe I need to tweak my control settings, but I find it impossible to snipe in Halo 3, not that I'm any good at it to begin with. It also seems like, based on my limited experience, some of the playlists tend to gravitate towards certain maps. I've played a couple of the playlists a fair amount of times, but always seem to play the same one or two maps/modes, while there are plenty of others I haven't even seen yet.

EDIT: Also, I wonder if they'll add Custom Games later, and first make sure everything else is up and running properly. Then again, if that was the plan I'm pretty sure they would make it public knowledge.
 
I cant believe they didn't add a ranked CTF matchmaking system. 🙁

Also, am I just missing something or is there no clan support in Halo 3 like there was in 2?
 
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