H1B Immigrants

jai6638

Golden Member
Apr 9, 2004
1,790
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0
New research shows that highly skilled workers are returning home for brighter career prospects and a better quality of life

By Vivek Wadhwa

As the debate over H-1B workers and skilled immigrants intensifies, we are losing sight of one important fact: The U.S. is no longer the only land of opportunity. If we don't want the immigrants who have fueled our innovation and economic growth, they now have options elsewhere. Immigrants are returning home in greater numbers. And new research shows they are returning to enjoy a better quality of life, better career prospects, and the comfort of being close to family and friends.

Earlier research by my team suggested that a crisis was brewing because of a burgeoning immigration backlog. At the end of 2006, more than 1 million skilled professionals (engineers, scientists, doctors, researchers) and their families were in line for a yearly allotment of only 120,000 permanent resident visas. The wait time for some people ran longer than a decade. In the meantime, these workers were trapped in "immigration limbo." If they changed jobs or even took a promotion, they risked being pushed to the back of the permanent residency queue. We predicted that skilled foreign workers would increasingly get fed up and return to countries like India and China where the economies were booming.

Why should we care? Because immigrants are critical to the country's long-term economic health. Despite the fact that they constitute only 12% of the U.S. population, immigrants have started 52% of Silicon Valley's technology companies and contributed to more than 25% of our global patents. They make up 24% of the U.S. science and engineering workforce holding bachelor's degrees and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs. Immigrants have co-founded firms such as Google (GOOG), Intel (INTC), eBay (EBAY), and Yahoo! (YHOO).
Who Are They? Young and Well-Educated

We tried to find hard data on how many immigrants had returned to India and China. No government authority seems to track these numbers. But human resources directors in India and China told us that what was a trickle of returnees a decade ago had become a flood. Job applications from the U.S. had increased tenfold over the last few years, they said. To get an understanding of how the returnees had fared and why they left the U.S., my team at Duke, along with AnnaLee Saxenian of the University of California at Berkeley and Richard Freeman of Harvard University, conducted a survey. Through professional networking site LinkedIn, we tracked down 1,203 Indian and Chinese immigrants who had worked or received education in the U.S. and had returned to their home countries. This research was funded by the Kauffman Foundation.

Our new paper, "America's Loss Is the World's Gain," finds that the vast majority of these returnees were relatively young. The average age was 30 for Indian returnees, and 33 for Chinese. They were highly educated, with degrees in management, technology, or science. Fifty-one percent of the Chinese held master's degrees and 41% had PhDs. Sixty-six percent of the Indians held a master's and 12.1% had PhDs. They were at very top of the educational distribution for these highly educated immigrant groups?precisely the kind of people who make the greatest contribution to the U.S. economy and to business and job growth.

Nearly a third of the Chinese returnees and a fifth of the Indians came to the U.S. on student visas. A fifth of the Chinese and nearly half of the Indians entered on temporary work visas (such as the H-1B). The strongest factor that brought them to the U.S. was professional and educational development opportunities.

What They Miss: Family and Friends

They found life in the U.S. had many drawbacks. Returnees cited language barriers, missing their family and friends at home, difficulty with cultural assimilation, and care of parents and children as key issues. About a third of the Indians and a fifth of the Chinese said that visas were a strong factor in their decision to return home, but others left for opportunity and to be close to family and friends. And it wasn't just new immigrants who were returning. In fact, 30% of respondents held permanent resident status or were U.S. citizens.

Eighty-seven percent of Chinese and 79% of Indians said a strong factor in their original decision to return home was the growing demand for their skills in their home countries. Their instincts generally proved right. Significant numbers moved up the organization chart. Among Indians the percentage of respondents holding senior management positions increased from 10% in the U.S. to 44% in India, and among Chinese it increased from 9% in the U.S. to 36% in China. Eighty-seven percent of Chinese and 62% of Indians said they had better opportunities for longer-term professional growth in their home countries than in the U.S. Additionally, nearly half were considering launching businesses and said entrepreneurial opportunities were better in their home countries than in the U.S.

Friends and family played an equally strong role for 88% of Indians and 77% of Chinese. Care for aging parents was considered by 89% of Indians and 79% of Chinese to be much better in their home countries. Nearly 80% of Indians and 67% of Chinese said family values were better in their home countries.
More Options Back Home

Immigrants who have arrived at America's shores have always felt lonely and homesick. They had to make big personal sacrifices to provide their children with better opportunities than they had. But they never have had the option to return home. Now they do, and they are leaving.

It isn't all rosy back home. Indians complained of traffic and congestion, lack of infrastructure, excessive bureaucracy, and pollution. Chinese complained of pollution, reverse culture shock, inferior education for children, frustration with government bureaucracy, and the quality of health care. Returnees said they were generally making less money in absolute terms, but they also said they enjoyed a higher quality of life.

We may not need all these workers in the U.S. during the deepening recession. But we will need them to help us recover from it. Right now, they are taking their skills and ideas back to their home countries and are unlikely to return, barring an extraordinary recruitment effort and major changes to immigration policy. That hardly seems likely given the current political climate. The policy focus now seems to be on doing whatever it takes to retain existing American jobs?even if it comes at the cost of building a workforce for the future of America.

Wadhwa is senior research associate at the Labor & Worklife Program at Harvard Law School and executive in residence at Duke University. He is an entrepreneur who founded two technology companies. His research can be found at www.globalizationresearch.com.

Click here for the business week link..

The author makes some good points and I hope that people see the difference between illegal uneducated immigrants and H1B eligible, educated immigrants who can add value to the American economy!
 

Jabbernyx

Senior member
Feb 2, 2009
350
0
0
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
There've been many P&N threads on this.

H1-B is used sometimes to import indentured servants. They get paid less, are required to work longer hours, and this affects the salaries and hours worked by their American co-workers.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
What about black americans?? shouldnt there be a 1:6 black american for every white american then?

I demand 6 white americans for every black american i see, the next time i go to mcdonalds.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
As mentioned above, no one has a problem with H1B really when they are used to fill in gaps where no qualified americans exist.

You are not supposed to pay an H1B less or offer them any differences in job/benefit that the american worker doesn't get.

The problem is many H1B are willing to work below common and customary wages, agree to longer hours, etc.

The newest loop hole is the 'grad degreee' deal. Many jobs do not require advanced degrees nor benefit from them. By saying they need them now is simply a way the employer can now create a new position and have pay and hours required not based on current US workers.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

You don't see many citizens getting these degrees because they're not necessary (many immigrants come over through school to gain a foothold) and engineering/science graduate degrees are less valuable than MBAs, JDs, MDs, etc.

Also, you go into engineering because you are a super-extreme dork, immigrant, child of immigrants, or poor.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.

I work in Silicon Valley and don't believe you. It really depends on the industry the company is in.

Anyone receiving an MS or PhD from a US university in a specialized field should get an automatic green card.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

You don't see many citizens getting these degrees because they're not necessary (many immigrants come over through school to gain a foothold) and engineering/science graduate degrees are less valuable than MBAs, JDs, MDs, etc.

Also, you go into engineering because you are a super-extreme dork, immigrant, child of immigrants, or poor.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.

I work in Silicon Valley and don't believe you. It really depends on the industry the company is in.

Anyone receiving an MS or PhD from a US university in a specialized field should get an automatic green card.


lets talk about my industry... I went to school to be a software developer.

I cant get a single interview because I dont have 10+ years experience.
but there are entry and 1st level jobs given to H1B visa's every day.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
I know one person at least and maybe on other (she hasn't decided yet) who are choosing to stay in Canada when they are done medical school rather than go to the states because of the hoops needed to jump through. Meh, it is not that the US has "lessened" in any way, just the rest of the world caught up mostly.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: sao123

lets talk about my industry... I went to school to be a software developer.

I cant get a single interview because I dont have 10+ years experience.
but there are entry and 1st level jobs given to H1B visa's every day.

Your personal experience is irrelevant. We have no details.

The sweet spot is generally 3-5 years, too.
 

ColdFusion718

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2000
3,496
9
81
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.

As if there's a difference? Indians are Asians too.

 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Anyone receiving an MS or PhD from a US university in a specialized field should get an automatic green card.

LOLWUT?

Are you a fucking immigrant or something? MS is not that hard....PhD not much more...it's just the time to value is not worth it for MOST professions along with those grad level course fees working against you.

What they should do is make college no longer an extension of high school...lower those getting in and give more encouragement to higher level degrees.
 

CrazyLazy

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2008
2,124
1
0
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Are you a fucking immigrant or something?

Most immigrants will fuck at least once in their life. The more you know *dingding* *dingding* CBS Cares.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: ColdFusion718
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.

As if there's a difference? Indians are Asians too.

Clearly he's referring to southeast Asians, the group we used to call Orientals and who are now known simply as Asians. Unfortunately political correctness prevents us from using the more precise term, even though it is not inherently offensive.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
Originally posted by: cirrrocco
What about black americans?? shouldnt there be a 1:6 black american for every white american then?

I demand 6 white americans for every black american i see, the next time i go to mcdonalds.

Blacks account for about 11% of the national population.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: CrazyLazy
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Are you a fucking immigrant or something?

Most immigrants will fuck at least once in their life. The more you know *dingding* *dingding* CBS Cares.

I am not talking about getting assed up in the back of a labor pool pickup on the way to cut someone's lawn.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,353
14,760
146
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: ColdFusion718
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
I never got the knee-jerk reaction that LEGAL immigrants are bad, especially those with higher degrees (MS and definitely PhD).
There's a definite need in industry for these folks and yet us Americans are filling it; how many of us do you see persuing grad degrees?


you dont see white american citizens persuing those degrees because:
once they have them, there is no market for them.

H1B visa workers are hired for these positions, because it is percieved they will work longer hours for less money, and american workers are being discriminated against.
if american workers were given more jobs in these tech fields, i dont think you would see such a backlash.
Dont believe me? Walk into a tech firm in Silicon valley, white american citizens are outnumbered by asian & indians almost 4-1. this is unacceptable.

As if there's a difference? Indians are Asians too.

Clearly he's referring to southeast Asians, the group we used to call Orientals and who are now known simply as Asians. Unfortunately political correctness prevents us from using the more precise term, even though it is not inherently offensive.

Oh...you're referring to Ornamentals...:p

Fuck a bunch of political correctness..
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
106
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
There've been many P&N threads on this.

H1-B is used sometimes to import indentured servants. They get paid less, are required to work longer hours, and this affects the salaries and hours worked by their American co-workers.

I've never seen a company that allowed pay discrepancies on that level between H1-Bs and American workers. The whole idea is an urban legend combined with conspiracy theory. Companies maintain HR, immigration and compensation teams for this express purpose.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Anyone receiving an MS or PhD from a US university in a specialized field should get an automatic green card.

LOLWUT?

Are you a fucking immigrant or something?

No.

MS is not that hard....PhD not much more...it's just the time to value is not worth it for MOST professions along with those grad level course fees working against you.

I'm talking about certain graduate degrees like in electrical engineering, etc. Getting an MS in something stupid like Information Technology or whatever crap they have nowadays is useless.

 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
They can pretty much cancel 95% of H1Bs for all I care.

The 5% being those where there are 0 qualified U.S. citizens able to fill the position. Adjust numbers slightly to fit that stipulation.