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GWB Offering Tax Cut Compromises Already?

jjm

Golden Member
That was fast. I guess GWB isn't getting the warm reception he was looking for on his national tour.

Also, what's wrong with linking implementation to the actual surpluses? Wouldn't anything else, by definition, ignite deficits again? Where is the fiscal responsibility?


Link

Modified tax plan floated by GOP

Top Republican senators hinted at compromise, but still rejected "triggers" tying the cuts to surpluses.


Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott yesterday proposed providing for a "midcourse" correction to tax cuts. (AP)
By Brigitte Greenberg
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON - Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott raised the possibility yesterday that Congress could scale back President Bush's tax cuts if projected budget surpluses did not materialize - a shift apparently intended to win support from reluctant centrists of both parties.

The suggestion from Lott (R., Miss.) came one day after Bush indicated he might be willing to compromise on his plan to cut taxes by $1.6 trillion over 10 years and just a few days after a nationwide poll found that Americans would support a tax cut if it were automatically pared down in the absence of surpluses.

Bush has opposed automatic "triggers" that would make tax cuts contingent on reaching goals in paying down the national debt or having a certain level of surplus money available each year.

Income-tax relief passed the Republican-controlled House last week with little support from Democrats, whose help will be crucial if Bush's plan is to pass in a Senate that is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats.

Lott said a trigger would inevitably undo the tax cuts. But for the first time, he suggested an alternative.

"I think that if you put a waiver in there for the president or if you had some sort of a midcourse adjustment opportunity where you sort of look at what's happening and set up a process - but a trigger, which is automatic, it's sort of like, now you see it, now you don't," Lott said on Fox News Sunday. He did not elaborate on how such an adjustment would work.

The trigger was proposed by Sens. Olympia J. Snowe (R., Maine) and Evan Bayh (D., Ind.), and several moderate Republican senators have joined the effort, including Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island and Susan Collins of Maine.

An NBC-Wall Street Journal poll released last week indicated that 73 percent of Americans would support a tax cut if tied to surpluses.

Sen. Phil Gramm (R., Texas), who sits on the Budget and Finance committees, said yesterday that a trigger would risk putting a financial "straitjacket" on the country. But like Lott, he appeared open to compromise.

"I think we can come up with a way of giving Congress an expedited consideration of something like a midcourse correction, but we can't lock the country into a straitjacket. It is a workable, responsible alternative. I think it's something we're going to look at, but in the end, the President is going to get this tax cut," Gramm said on NBC's Meet the Press.

He, too, did not go into detail about the "correction."

All the talk of a midcourse correction marks a change from the approach used to win passage in the House - where GOP leaders pushed the Bush plan through, as is, on a mostly party-line vote.

Sen. John Kerry (D., Mass.) said that would not work in the Senate, and Bush and his Republican allies must heal wounds caused by the House effort if they expected to win support.

"I think what happened in the House in fact will be interpreted by many Democrats in the Senate as almost an insult, a slap in the face to a real democratic process," Kerry said on ABC's This Week.

Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.) said on CNN's Late Edition that the administration made a "tactical blunder" in pushing the bill through the House without bipartisan support.

Senate Democrats, who generally favor a smaller tax cut, will not be ignored, said Sen. John Edwards (D., N.C.).

"The President's going to have to deal with us in the Senate, and I think he recognizes that," Edwards said on NBC.

Over the last two weeks, Bush has traveled to nine states to promote his tax cut and to pressure those states' Democratic senators to support it. Bush on Saturday also floated conciliatory language in newspaper interviews, telling the Washington Post: "I am willing to listen. There's a lot of opinions. There are a lot of opinions - there's a hundred opinions."

Among the compromise options on the table, according to Republican officials: reducing the amount by which the wealthiest would see their income tax rate drop.

Bush proposed cutting rates across the board, including dropping the top 39.6 percent rate to 33 percent. Republicans sources have suggested Bush might be open to lowering it to 35 percent instead, but would insist on a reduction in the top tax rate.

That might help with Democrats who argue that Bush's tax cut is too heavily weighted in favor of the richest Americans.

Sen. John B. Breaux (D., La.) said Bush was facing reality with his latest overtures.

"I think if we can do something that would address middle- and lower-middle-income people and not be quite so high on the top end, on the very top bracket, I think that's the potential for a good agreement," Breaux said on CNN.

Democrats have called for a tax cut about half the size of Bush's, saying more of the projected $5.6 trillion, 10-year budget surplus should be used to pay down the debt and fund other budget priorities such as education, prescription drugs for the elderly, and defense.

Lott said he thought Bush's rate reduction proposals, which would reduce the five tax brackets of 39.6, 36, 31, 28 and 15 percent into four brackets of 33, 25, 15 and 10 over five years, was a good idea.

"I think the President has got it right when he says no American should pay more than a third of their income to the federal government," Lott said.

But he said Bush's proposal to phase out estate taxes could undergo change. He said he would like to raise the exemption, now at $675,000, faster and take longer to eliminate the tax entirely. The Bush plan would phase out estate taxes over 10 years.

Lott also supports reducing capital gains taxes paid on the sale of stocks and other investments, which is not included in the Bush plan.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article includes information from Reuters.

 
Hey jjm, since I know you keep up on things more than I do......I was kind of hoping to see you in here today! What did you think about several of the Stock Market anyalist saying that they thought it was entirely possible to have the Nasdaq at around 500 and unemployment at 15% in the not to distant future? Heck one guy was saying "a LONG, DEEP RECESSION is imminent........I'd have gotten the links.......but figured you had already seen the articles anyway.... 😉
 
/me yawns and wonders when the Gore supporters will EVER get over losing.

The Republicans are cowards and have richly earned the label "The Stupid Party".

The Dems are a horde of loaded diaper crybabies who are shreiking that Dubya isn't being nice to them and that he hasn't included their "priorities", which are basically "don't cut taxes and spend every cent on buying votes".

Does anyone remember when the Dems used to bar Reps. from committee hearings, sometimes not even telling them when they were or barring them from the rooms? They ran roughshod over the GOP when they had the ball, but expect the GOP to grease up and bend over now that they're in charge. With the media firmly behind them, they're gonna try and convince the public what they want is what they Dems want.

Dubya's getting great response on the trail and this is just more typical class-warfare bullchit to maintain the status quo: OUR money in THEIR pockets.

Bah!
 
ToBeMe - I think we'll see a recession, but nowhere near the doom-and-gloom scenario some are predicting. The dire predictions get people headlines.

The Fed is trying to prop up the economy by cutting rates to keep the consumer spending. It can't do that forever because fundamental problems (like weak earnings) will not let the economy skirt a recession. The Fed is betting that inventory sell-offs and increasing productivity will kick in by the second half of the year. It's a dangerous gamble. Some are advocating that we should let the economy take its lumps now, rather than later. With the savings rate at zero, the Fed can't keep consumers spending forever. And delaying the recession will make it worse on consumers with low savings and higher debt levels.
 
ToBeMe: Links?

Are you saying that unless the government maintains it's huge siphoning of the people's income that the economy will fail? Defies logic, but people will believe anyhing these days.
 
Um, Def, it was GWB, Lott and other GOP leaders who offered compromises. How is that the Dem's doing?
 
The stock market's correction has been long overdue and there was no reason to expect that it wasn't gonna happen eventually.

I love how the proposed solution is going to be "Give Uncle Sam the money." WTF is the government going to do with OUR cash that we shouldn't be doing?!? All they'll do is create more programs to get people hooked on the government dole and make sure that the surpluses never appear, thus allowing them to keep taking and taking and taking and...

Taxation=Theft.
 
With the savings rate at zero

I really don't like the way the government calculates "saving" rate. I believe they are talking about cash in the bank. According to the government, our 401k/403b, ESPP, IRAs and amount to ZERO savings. Not to me. 😉 The calculation is based on the old mentality that people just put there money in the bank and let it sit there forever. So based on this the investor class has not "saved" anything.

I think the triggers are stupid. Either cut taxes our don't. No middle ground. The trigger would effectively be a TAX hike during bad times. Not a good idea.
 
It's called the art of negotiation...

You go to the table with "Pre-Defined" concessions. That way you will appear as though you are willing to give up some things (even though you never really cared for them in the first place.
 
jjm: The GOP's caving in to the slightest class-warfare, scare-mongering head fakes of the Dems have proven them unworthy of trust and respect.

When you have one side committed to the ripoff of the taxpayer and the other afraid to stand up and fight the theft, because they're afraid that they'll be called names and lied about in the media, it doesn't leave much hope that those who work will avoid getting scalped.

The fact that they are cutting rates as much as promised and are refusing to make all cuts IMMEDIATELY retroactive THIS YEAR (not in 5 years) reveas the general unseriousness of the participants. Clinton made tax increases retroactive, but tax cuts have to be timidly phased in over several years and may be short-circuited if the government decides to go berserk with the spending instead of showing restraint.

Wake the fvck up people!! The government is too big, does too little at too much cost and then tells the people that they'll die without it's every program. AND THEY BELIEVE IT!!!!

We manage to live within our means, why the hell don't we demand the same of the government?!?

Let's hear it for poorly educated (but in touch with their feelings) sheep.
 
Def - Do you advocate deficit spending to be able to cut taxes now? I am sure you don't. Which programs would you slash and by how much?

Also: "I love how the proposed solution is going to be "Give Uncle Sam the money." WTF is the government going to do with OUR cash that we shouldn't be doing?!? All they'll do is create more programs to get people hooked on the government dole and make sure that the surpluses never appear, thus allowing them to keep taking and taking and taking and..."

Who in this thread said that?

"The GOP's caving in to the slightest class-warfare, scare-mongering head fakes of the Dems have proven them unworthy of trust and respect."

Wow, those GOP idiots are weak-willed dolts! I certainly wouldn't want them leading my country.

If the Dems are as resourceful, crafty, and sly as you suggest, at least they show some intellect. I agree with you, let's dump the GOP!
 
Total - No, it is not just bank deposits. The savings estimate is derived after adding up income and subtracting spending. Therefore, everything else is considered "savings." You are confusing this with the M1 definition of the money supply.

Edit:

No trigger? And that must mean you advocate deficit spending in the bad times, right? When does the debt generated by deficits get paid down if you start cutting taxes before there is substantial debt retirement?
 
Scott:

"It's called the art of negotiation...

You go to the table with "Pre-Defined" concessions. That way you will appear as though you are willing to give up some things (even though you never really cared for them in the first place."

So you are saying that GWB intended to deliver on some of his promises, but not all of them. Do you think the average American saw it that way? Doesn't say much for the higher standard of integrity that GWB proclaimed he would bring to the office, does it? (That's okay. I never believed him either.)
 
I didn't say someone in this thread advocated giving the $$$ to Uncle Sam, but when you think that letting the people keep their money is not a good idea, that's what you mean.

I do not advocate deficit spending, I DEMAND GOVERNMENT CUTBACKS!!!!

What would I cut? Let's start with foreign aid to countries that oppose us in the UN and spy on us. You want the dough, get in line and be a good little puppet, otherwise, beat it!

Another thing to cut: CORPORATE WELFARE!!!! Subsidies and other bullchit paybacks to those who pony of the campaign bribes are wrong as well.

Next to go: WELFARE! To be more precise, the welfare administration. It would be cheaper to just hand out $20,000 checks to whoever put their hands out, then maintain the bloated, inefficient bureacrats in charge.

The Dems have their own Ministry of Big Lie Propaganda called the Mainstream Media. The Dems say "Republicans are drowning puppies" and the media goes to the GOP and asks, "Whay are you drowning puppies?" and then reports, "The GOP denies drowning puppies, but this will do little to assuage fears of minorities and women."

The GOP SHOULD be the defenders of the Little Guy, but they've been so cowed by the ritual slaughter of Newt Gingrich and general witchhunting, that they've decided that appeasement is the best course of action.

Of course, that worked for Neville Chamberlin too.
 
Really, Def, now that your fantasy has passed, what could really be accomplished? Neither party will do any of what you suggest. And alternative parties have no chance at all. You can be realistic about what's really possible, or just moan and groan.
 
::JJM::

Just like a Demo to put words in a Republicans mouth.

When you take a package like GW took to a group of people.... Concessions must be made. Generaly, the concessions are the most minor points of a package. It is a case of giving up "minor points" to get the majority of the proposed package passed. Otherwise, they get none of the package.

What kind of a president would he be if he pushed and pushed his package to get elected and let it die? That leaves the American people with none of what he promised.

Hope you never try for public office....you'll get eaten up. If you are in public office, I feal for you constituants (sp).
 
The savings estimate is derived after adding up income and subtracting spending

Is this adjusted gross income? If so than 401k/s and deductible IRAs would still not be included. I do believe people exceed their income and pile up debt but numbers can be twisted to suit any purpose.
 
What's wrong with triggers to end the tax-cuts?

Because spending increases could activate the triggers. If Congress spends more of our money, then our tax cuts get nixed. Tell me that's fair.

Before you whine about what programs you would cut and how I hate little children and minorities, please tell me that there is absolutely no waste in government. If you can prove that to me, then I'll ask GWB to back off his tax cut plan.

WASTE=CRIME especially when you've wasted the money I had to give you.
 
Scott - No interest in public office. Kind of a strange deflection on your part.

By the way, do you think those in the highest bracket appreciate part of their cut being sacrificed for the good of the package? I think there are lots of folks on this board who will be furious with that trade, and some of them have only hopes of getting to that top bracket someday! Those earning the most would lose a great deal in the bargain since it will hit all their income over $240,000. And it looks like their estate tax cut might be softened as well. I guess GWB's statement that "no one should pay more than a third of his income in taxes" was just a carefully planned PR sound bite, right? I wonder what else was just a sound bite?

Total - The calculation uses an estimate of all income. The AGI concept is something used only in tax calculations.
 
What's wrong with triggers to end the tax-cuts?

Because it is an effective tax increase during bad times. Just makes the economic situation worse. Better not to have a tax cut at all if one believes as such. Others believe tax cut will help economy down the road and generate additional tax revenue.
 
Maybe this is the way to battle against taxes. If you think the tax system is unfair, don't pay. All those who say we are taxed too much, stand up, show your bravery, and stop paying! After all, you're fighting for justice! It's worth the prison time.


03/12/2001 - Updated 02:00 AM ET



Activists cite hole in tax code

By Greg Farrell, USA TODAY

Move over, Marc Rich.

Five men are using a novel interpretation of tax law to argue that neither they nor their workers must pay federal income taxes. But while tax evaders often go to great lengths to hide their financial dealings from the IRS, these men are doing the opposite. They appeared in a full-page ad in USA TODAY on March 2 to proclaim their actions.

They are taunting the IRS to come after them and don't mind the scrutiny because they don't believe they're evading taxes.

One, Nick Jesson, wants a courtroom showdown with the taxman. "It's what I've been trying to get for 6 years," says Jesson, who runs No Time Delay Electronics of Huntington Beach, Calif. "But we want a real trial with a real jury, not some biased IRS-chosen people."

According to We the People, the organization behind the ad, a strict reading of section 861 of the tax code shows that income is taxable only if its source is a venture outside the USA. Because the five men in the ad run businesses in the USA, they say neither they nor their employees are subject to a federal income tax.

The IRS, of course, disagrees.

The position of Jesson and others is "based on an incorrect interpretation of the Internal Revenue code that wages are not a 'source' of income and that the definition of 'sources of income' does not apply to U.S. individuals," reads an IRS statement on the matter.

"Every single argument I've seen in any ad or courtroom has been rebutted time and time again," says Mark Matthews, IRS chief of criminal investigation. "It's always found to be frivolous. We have a lot of successful prosecutions against people who have been in movements like this before. We've put people like this in prison."

In February 2000, Edward Kotmair of Maryland was sentenced to 27 months in prison for failure to file federal income tax returns. Kotmair belongs to an organization known as the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship, which holds that U.S. citizens living and working in the USA are not required to pay federal income taxes.

In October 2000, Channing Nando Wilson of Colorado was sentenced to 18 months in prison for failure to file federal tax returns. Wilson's defense was that he did not believe he was required to file income tax returns.

"The courts have looked at the 861 argument and considered it frivolous," says John Buchanan, IRS point man on abusive tax shelters. "You have to withhold income taxes, Social Security taxes and some kind of unemployment tax. I can't think of a way for a thriving business to destroy itself faster than to stop withholding taxes, because they will have to pay it back."

The men in the ad resent being portrayed as oddball by the IRS.

"It's so easy for someone with a pulpit to call someone else a fringe group," says Leonard Roberto of New York. Roberto, who runs Batavia Enclosures, does not withhold his employees' taxes. While he and Jesson pay state and local taxes, they refuse to recognize their income as taxable on a federal level and therefore don't file 1040s.

This movement against federal taxation of wages has several hundred followers, Jesson says. But the group's biggest weakness is its absence of legal representation. We the People has no high-profile lawyers among its advocates, a fact Jesson attributes to fear of recrimination throughout the legal community.

"We're not tax protesters," Jesson insists. "We don't want the government to go without support. We just want the regulations to be followed."


 
Hi, charrison.

You know I'm just trying to make a point. This kind of stuff highlights the absurdity of those who pound the table for impractical solutions. I'd much rather see people come up with workable ideas given all the characters and dynamics involved. That would be a worthwhile discussion.
 
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