[GURU3D] Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?

[3DVagabond]

We understand that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation in the internet community about Guru3D’s article titled “Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?”. We would like to clarify the following:

Precision’s original main GUI concept was designed and provided to the community by EVGA in 2008.
The RivaTuner control panel and backend code in prior versions of Precision were developed and is owned by the RivaTuner developer. EVGA does not own the source code for any RivaTuner code. EVGA paid for the development and distribution rights per the contract.
The new EVGA PrecisionX 15 was coded from scratch by EVGA without copying any of the RivaTuner code.
Both RivaTuner and EVGA PrecisionX 15 make use of the NVIDIA NVAPI to communicate with NVIDIA graphics cards and drivers, which is owned and provided by NVIDIA.

Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.ph...61&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.

Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word “RivaTuner” and the word “RTTSH.dll”, a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages, unfortunately this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.

Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user’s experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the “similarities” between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case.

Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.

Thank You,
EVGA

I love these retractions where the company capitulates but claims they did no wrong. lol

Originally Posted by ocre
i see both sides.

One thing everyone should note is Unwinder claimed he would not pursue legal action against EVGA for what they have done. In my opinion, if he really had grounds suing them would have been the most appropriate thing to do. Not throw a huge public fit with slander and defacing involved.

The route he took is extremely interesting and it might even be telling. He probably had no real grounds for a lawsuit. Although he may not have grounds, his actions of defamation give grounds for EVGA especially if it hurts sales. So ultimately the way he handled this is could come back to haunt him in a very profound way. Not only from EVGA but he hurt his own image. No business would want to work with such a loose cannon.

In every single way a lawsuit would have been better. It is the way you handle a licensing dispute. So it really makes me question if unwinder really thinks that his code was actually used. I believe he knows it wasnt. But the idea, yeap. The style, yep. It look similar for sure. But in EVGAs mind they took over the project and they were trying to add the features they wanted.

Sure, because Russia is known for strictly enforcing copyright law (said no one ever). Although I could be wrong because you've presented this as factual, so I assume you are a lawyer familiar with the law and enforcement in such cases?

Come on, "took over the project"? They stole the guys work because they got a bent nose that MSI got a feature they wanted. Not a feature they paid for, mind you. Just a feature they said would be good to add. And them trying to claim that requesting a 64 bit overlay for BF4 is some sort of original thinking that they should get any kind of recognition or preference for. If they wanted it, they should have contracted him to do it. This is called cutting your nose off to spite your face. Now it looks like they are going to go through and remove any code that's identifiable before they release it again. I wonder if in the end they actually saved anything doing it in house?

You say you see both sides, but your post is pretty one sided. :\

 

[3DVagabond]

I said that I am not sure if there are any legal grounds or not. Fact of the matter is, there is plenty of prior art of other applications doing the very same thing, and that's a fact. Whether the "look and feel" of the application is grounds for suing, I really don't know. All I know is that my interactions with unwinder, with me just asking him questions about afterburner, is that he is not a friendly person. In fact, I have not seen such a rude person on any forum ever like him. That makes it hard to sympathize with the guy.

Now if EVGA is in the wrong, he should fully pursue it. I stated in my prior post that I do not know if EVGA is in the wrong or right. I'm not a lawyer. But as an outsider looking in , there is prior art and plenty of other applications doing the very same thing. So that's my non expert opinion: the fact that prior art exists makes the claim very questionable if EVGA did indeed use all of their in-house code. But if they didn't use in house code, unwinder should certainly pursue legal action to the fullest extent possible.

I'm not sure which apps you are referring to exactly, but I believe most of them are done by unwinder as well. Also I'm not sure what "older" apps you refer to are.

SOURCE:

Alexey: Correct, RivaTuner was single man project. I started working on it in 1997 simply because I needed something to configure my NVIDIA Riva128 graphics card. So version 1.0 was born. It was not intended for public release so initial development took just a few days. In such form RivaTuner v1.0 lived on my home HDD till 2000 when I decided to rewrite it and share it with community. RivaTuner v1.0 was relatively simple power user oriented editor of graphics cards’ registry settings, it was working with database of all known registry entries and allowed you to edit them in hexadecimal form. This way you could experiment with new settings and explore new undocumented tweaks. Couple years later whole v1.0 idea transformed into single “Power user” tab in v2.0. Modern tools like NVInspector, allowing you to work with database of driver’s settings edit them directly in hex, is an evolution of this idea.

Riva Tuner has been around for quite some time.

 

[rgallant]

Riva Tuner has been around for quite some time.

you have to wonder if evga knew they would take some heat on this new version , but thought they could deal with their local members.
not factoring in the 10mil th [1mil or 10 can't remember]download years ago by peeps that might have a say about them taking some from of ownership of a program they have used for years.
we know one site that went after evga , but we don't know how many review sites contacted them to make it right . but not as far as paying up from dec.2013 when they stopped payment while their members are still using PX , no mention of that
-2011 version is still on their download site.

all about the money folks

 

[SPBHM]

EVGA pulling out the software is very telling,

I think I've started using RT in 2002, it was great for a lot more than just OC, like unlocking R300 and NV40 pipelines, using Quadro drivers with Geforce and so on...
but at some point RT development became slow and other options appeared, until PX and AB appeared, now I'm very pleased with the current Afterburner Beta, so I can't really say anything bad about the creator, and from what he told and the reactions I tend to think EVGA is not acting very well,

they claimed to have developed the new PX "100%" at some point, while it's clearly not the case,

 

[DarkKnightDude]

EVGA got caught. Well, not buying their overpriced products ever anyway. I prefer MSI's stuff.

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

LOL
We love dirty laundry :awe: pay the man who wrote the app, UnWinder worte the software and owns it!! @ Unwinder, I know a good lawyer in Reno, hit me up!

 

[Micrornd]

Sure, because Russia is known for strictly enforcing copyright law (said no one ever).

It is my understanding that Alex lives in Ukraine, not Russsia, and that was one of the reasons he chose not to pursue legal action. (i.e. not knowing what tomorrow might bring at home)

 

[ocre]

I love these retractions where the company capitulates but claims they did no wrong. lol



Sure, because Russia is known for strictly enforcing copyright law (said no one ever). Although I could be wrong because you've presented this as factual, so I assume you are a lawyer familiar with the law and enforcement in such cases?

Come on, "took over the project"? They stole the guys work because they got a bent nose that MSI got a feature they wanted. Not a feature they paid for, mind you. Just a feature they said would be good to add. And them trying to claim that requesting a 64 bit overlay for BF4 is some sort of original thinking that they should get any kind of recognition or preference for. If they wanted it, they should have contracted him to do it. This is called cutting your nose off to spite your face. Now it looks like they are going to go through and remove any code that's identifiable before they release it again. I wonder if in the end they actually saved anything doing it in house?

You say you see both sides, but your post is pretty one sided. :\

Apparently your not understanding.

1) In regard to my statement-
Irregardless of EVGA's wrongfulness or lack thereof, Unwinders actions following were completely irresponsible and inappropriate. That is not the proper way to deal with licensing dispute. Even if your not a lawyer you should understand that. Its unquestionably obvious even to the layman.

2) Regarding your statement
EVGA could not contact the Unwinder for the features they wanted, MSI paid for exclusive rights. This blocked EVGA out of the feature. Unwinder took the deal with MSI and EVGA went searching for other options.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because you got your pitchfork out, I think your vision is clouded.

I do not use EVGA cards!!!!!!! Does that blow your mind? If that doesnt, then the next part surely will......

Every motherboard I bought new in the past 6yrs has all been MSI.
My graphics card in my PC: GTX760 MSI TF
I have an old Q6600 running, guess what? both MSI motherboard and GPU

I mainly buy MSI. I am a huge fan of their products. I have never ever used EVGA precision and I have personally installed Afterburner on a friends PC to replace the precision software he was using.

Anyone who knows me knows i love MSI.

 

[f1sherman]

@ocre what?
we should talk about the victim and his conduct and his dignity or the lack of in the aftermath of the robbery.
That's the issue here? REALLY?

he's on shaky ground because he's Ukrainian citizen and EVGA is US based company. and god knows what provisions their national law has to offer

So no doubt legal repercussions are convoluted, but essentially it's very simple.
EVGA blatantly c/p-ed parts of his work and then they had the balls to claim 100% in-house development.

Then they pulled back their sw, and lied some more

All in all great time to be an Ukrainian citizen... NOT. They are getting $#@*( from all sides.

 

[3DVagabond]

It is my understanding that Alex lives in Ukraine, not Russsia, and that was one of the reasons he chose not to pursue legal action. (i.e. not knowing what tomorrow might bring at home)

Thanks for adding that fact. I don't think the Ukraine is any better on copyright, but considering everything else right now I can understand him having concerns about other things.

 

[3DVagabond]

Apparently your not understanding.

1) In regard to my statement-
Irregardless of EVGA's wrongfulness or lack thereof, Unwinders actions following were completely irresponsible and inappropriate. That is not the proper way to deal with licensing dispute. Even if your not a lawyer you should understand that. Its unquestionably obvious even to the layman.

2) Regarding your statement
EVGA could not contact the Unwinder for the features they wanted, MSI paid for exclusive rights. This blocked EVGA out of the feature. Unwinder took the deal with MSI and EVGA went searching for other options.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because you got your pitchfork out, I think your vision is clouded.

I do not use EVGA cards!!!!!!! Does that blow your mind? If that doesnt, then the next part surely will......

Every motherboard I bought new in the past 6yrs has all been MSI.
My graphics card in my PC: GTX760 MSI TF
I have an old Q6600 running, guess what? both MSI motherboard and GPU

I mainly buy MSI. I am a huge fan of their products. I have never ever used EVGA precision and I have personally installed Afterburner on a friends PC to replace the precision software he was using.

Anyone who knows me knows i love MSI.

I never claimed you have an EVGA bias. I never even considered what brand products you own. Unlike you, I am not trying to counter arguments by trying to undermine peoples character. So, I will simply ignore that and concentrate on what I actually spoke to.

1) It is not regardless of EVGA's wrong doing. That is what this is all about. Instead it's turned into character assassination on unwinder. He deserves it because he's a jerk, and he's acting inappropriately. Sorry, but when people don't have the means to fight things out behind closed doors they often, and quite effectively, use the peoples court. Heck, lawyers do it all the time as well.

2)We'll assume you are correct for now and that EVGA can't simply contract unwinder because of a deal he's made with MSI. This is the first I've heard of this. I'll assume you have a good source for this info?
If EVGA would have paid for the work when they first suggested it they could have had it. According to EVGA anyway, as they claim they thought of it first. That doesn't give them the right, nor the cause, to steal unwinder's work. And that is actually what this is all about.

 

[ocre]

firefox, IE, Opera, Chrome, etc, etc all look the same. Function the same, they work the same on multiple levels. So they all have the same code............

can i get a high five!!!!!!

err..............
wrong. Totally different coding. The looks, functions, and layout can look exactly the same way but the code vastly different. In programing there are many many ways to do the same exact thing. It is more true in programming than any other thing. As a matter of fact, if you pay two programmers write a very simple tick tack toe program, their programs will be very very different.

There are so many different routes for every function its boggling and everyone has their own way of going about it.

Of course I am not a programmer by trade (PC code that is, i branched into programming PLCs and Fanuc), so you dont have to believe me. You can keep believing thats how it works,
its really kind of funny actually.

 

[3DVagabond]

firefox, IE, Opera, Chrome, etc, etc all look the same. Function the same, they work the same on multiple levels. So they all have the same code............

can i get a high five!!!!!!

err..............
wrong. Totally different coding. The looks, functions, and layout can look exactly the same way but the code vastly different. In programing there are many many ways to do the same exact thing. It is more true in programming than any other thing. As a matter of fact, if you pay two programmers write a very simple tick tack toe program, their programs will be very very different.

There are so many different routes for every function its boggling and everyone has their own way of going about it.

Of course I am not a programmer by trade (PC code that is, i branched into programming PLCs and Fanuc), so you dont have to believe me. You can keep believing thats how it works,
its really kind of funny actually.

Sorry, I'm not sure of your point. If you are saying that EVGA could get the same functionality with their own code, I don't doubt that. The problem comes when unwinder looks at the program and can find where they actually cut and paste his code.

 

[Spanners]

firefox, IE, Opera, Chrome, etc, etc all look the same. Function the same, they work the same on multiple levels. So they all have the same code............

can i get a high five!!!!!!

err..............
wrong. Totally different coding. The looks, functions, and layout can look exactly the same way but the code vastly different. In programing there are many many ways to do the same exact thing. It is more true in programming than any other thing. As a matter of fact, if you pay two programmers write a very simple tick tack toe program, their programs will be very very different.

There are so many different routes for every function its boggling and everyone has their own way of going about it.

Of course I am not a programmer by trade (PC code that is, i branched into programming PLCs and Fanuc), so you dont have to believe me. You can keep believing thats how it works,
its really kind of funny actually.

I'm not sure who your condescending rant (replete with weak analogy) is meant to address as nobody in this thread has claimed that all software that looks the same is coded exactly the same (that would be a risible claim).

The point is EVGA did claim to have re-built this software from the ground up and it seems they only partially did this.

 

[Micrornd]

Now that this controversy is "out there" and EVGA has pulled the software to make needed corrections to what I believe they referred to as "the “similarities” between the two programs", the amount of time before EVGA makes the program available once more will be the benchmark.

"Similarities" and "inadvertent references" are quickly and easily eliminated, especially why one's reputation is on the line.
On the other hand, complete white room code writing isn't quick, by any means.

Time will tell and so will the "new" code when EVGA rereleases it, since it will be examined and compared to both Rivatuner and EVGA's "totally in-house" Precison that they pulled by many, many more than would ever have looked at it a week ago.

Probably the worst thing EVGA could do at this point is to not rerelease the program.

 

[rgallant]

Now that this controversy is "out there" and EVGA has pulled the software to make needed corrections to what I believe they referred to as "the “similarities” between the two programs", the amount of time before EVGA makes the program available once more will be the benchmark.

"Similarities" and "inadvertent references" are quickly and easily eliminated, especially why one's reputation is on the line.
On the other hand, complete white room code writing isn't quick, by any means.

Time will tell and so will the "new" code when EVGA rereleases it, since it will be examined and compared to both Rivatuner and EVGA's "totally in-house" Precison that they pulled by many, many more than would ever have looked at it a week ago.

Probably the worst thing EVGA could do at this point is to not rerelease the program.

I agree with that,
5 days vs 30 days + will be telling for sure.

 

[3DVagabond]

Now that this controversy is "out there" and EVGA has pulled the software to make needed corrections to what I believe they referred to as "the “similarities” between the two programs", the amount of time before EVGA makes the program available once more will be the benchmark.

"Similarities" and "inadvertent references" are quickly and easily eliminated, especially why one's reputation is on the line.
On the other hand, complete white room code writing isn't quick, by any means.

Time will tell and so will the "new" code when EVGA rereleases it, since it will be examined and compared to both Rivatuner and EVGA's "totally in-house" Precison that they pulled by many, many more than would ever have looked at it a week ago.

Probably the worst thing EVGA could do at this point is to not rerelease the program.

IF it was purely developed in house, as they claimed, they wouldn't have pulled it. As I see it there are two scenarios. 1)They only used parts of unwinder's code because developing those "parts" themselves was too hard, so they stole what they needed. 2) They stole it plain and simple and added the 64bit OL (and whatever else little addons they had).

I believe it's closer to 2 than 1. If you are going to steal to save work, then why do any work at all?