Guns and Watertown

[Charles Kozierok]

Not a strawman at all, I work with a lot of "gun enthusiast" that talk like having a gun in the area is an assurance of safety. "If I had been in that movie theater, with my gun, things would've been a lot different." etc, I am sorry there are a lot of nutty pro-gun people out there, but that doesn't make my argument a strawman.

Then those people are foolish. Nobody here has said that, and it's not reasonable to dismiss the entire argument that guns are advantageous in this sort of situation just because a few people exaggerate.

I say let the pussies carry all the guns they want. Hide in your hole with a gun in your hand waiting for that terrorist to get you.

I'll be enjoying life and if I'm killed while doing it? So what.

And that applies here, how exactly? The police have told everyone to stay in their homes. They are worried that a guy may be breaking into houses. Your choices are, stay home with a gun to protect your family, or without one. What does that have to do with "pussies" or "hiding"? Do you think someone is going to "enjoy life" less just because he has more options?

 

[irishScott]

I say let the pussies carry all the guns they want. Hide in your hole with a gun in your hand waiting for that terrorist to get you.

I'll be enjoying life and if I'm killed while doing it? So what.

So people who carry guns are pussies who don't enjoy life? Well I guess I've just been living my life all wrong then. I should be cowering in a hole muttering in a southern drawl about commies and terrorists and be checking everyone I pass for suspicious bulges.

I enjoy my life perfectly well thank you, and if legalities don't permit I'm more than willing to leave my gun at home and keep enjoying it. Point of fact, all it shows is I'm willing to take on more responsibility than you. If that makes me a pussy, I'd hate to see your definition of strength.

 

[irishScott]

I can say that if I lived there now, I'd pull the shotgun out of the safe, load shells in the magazine, and keep the weapon close by until the situation is over. I'd also stay alert and keep my head down if there's police activity in my area.

Absolutely I'd want a firearm, and absolutely will I NOT do something stupid with it.

Oh come on, that bomber's no threat to you, stop being such a pussy. So what if he helped kill 3 and injure over a hundred? The cops are there in force and are taking care of the situation. You have nothing to fear. So what if they've locked down your area and told you to stay indoors? They'll never let him get to your door in the first place.

For my part, I'm cracking open a beer, unlocking my door and having a party. No guns allowed. So what if we make a nice target and get blown up? We'll be enjoying life.

--ivwshane

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Let's avoid mocking each other, it just gets people riled up.

 

[irishScott]

Let's avoid mocking each other, it just gets people riled up.

Very well, suppose I'm too used to P&N.

 

[Zorba]

Then those people are foolish. Nobody here has said that, and it's not reasonable to dismiss the entire argument that guns are advantageous in this sort of situation just because a few people exaggerate.

Now who is using the strawman? I straight said if I were there I'd have my gun with me.

 

[Zorba]

You care to explain to me how it's not? I said in the next line that if someone is out to get you that's a different story.

Yeah, but you started off saying a gun assured safety in muggings, etc, which it doesn't. In a lot of situations in real life a gun might get you shot, instead of just robbed.

For example, if the guy these guys car-jacked had pulled a gun, would he still be alive right now? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Now who is using the strawman?

Certainly not me.

The point is a simple one: if the police tell you to stay in your house because there's a heavily armed murderer running around and they don't know where he is, are you better off with, or without a gun? All the stuff about assurances and carjackings and muggings is not relevant.

 

[Fern]

Late last night they (one of channels, can't remember which I surfing so much) had a college student on. He was on TV via his webcam (or whatever they are).

The big, initial, gun battle was just outside his apartment. He walked his notebook over to the window and we could see their car (SUV) still there. There were a couple of backpacks and a police robot probing it. He appeared to be on at least the 3rd or 4th floor.

He recounted looking down at the two brothers hiding behind the SUV engaged in a shoot out with the police, who were parked further up and behind their cruiser. They were throwing bombs etc at the police too. This is where the older brother was killed.

My real point here, and it's regarding having guns, is I sat and wondered what would have happened if this took place down here where I live.

I think there's a good chance it would've ended there. From that kid's vantage point it would have been easy as pie to take out the two brothers. Bam, bam, and they're injured or dead.

But due to very strict laws nobody (or very few) have guns there.

And before somebody pipes up and talks about me, if I had shot them, being in trouble for shooting them I'll point out I'm in a Stand Your Ground state. I.e., self defense kicks-in if you shoot someone in defense of others. I.e., the police he was shooting at.

Ticker tape parade down here, prison term up North.

Fern

 

[corwin]

Late last night they (one of channels, can't remember which I surfing so much) had a college on. He was on TV via his webcam (or whatever they are).

The big, initial, gun battle was just outside his apartment. he walked his notebook over to the window and we could see their car (SUV) still there. There were a couple of backpacks and a police robot probing it. He appeared to be on at least the 3rd or 4th floor.

He recounted looking down at the two brother hiding behind the SUV engaged in a shoot out with the police, who were parked further up and behind their cruiser. They were throwing bombs etc at the police too. This is where the older brother was killed.

My real point here, and it's regarding having guns, is I sat and wondered what would have happened if this took place down here where I live.

I think there's a good chance it would've ended there. From that kid's vantage point it would have been easy as pie to take out the two brothers. Bam, bam, and they're injured or dead.

But due to very strict laws nobody (or very few) have guns there.

And before somebody pipes up and talks about me, if I had shot them, being in trouble for shooting them I'll point out I'm in a Stand Your Ground state. I.e., self defense kicks-in if you shoot someone in defense of others. I.e., the police he was shooting at.

Ticker tape parade down here, prison term up North.

Fern

Damn straight...hopefully none of us will ever be in that position but if it were to happen those of us in "free" states are much better off

 

[ivwshane]

Late last night they (one of channels, can't remember which I surfing so much) had a college student on. He was on TV via his webcam (or whatever they are).

The big, initial, gun battle was just outside his apartment. He walked his notebook over to the window and we could see their car (SUV) still there. There were a couple of backpacks and a police robot probing it. He appeared to be on at least the 3rd or 4th floor.

He recounted looking down at the two brothers hiding behind the SUV engaged in a shoot out with the police, who were parked further up and behind their cruiser. They were throwing bombs etc at the police too. This is where the older brother was killed.

My real point here, and it's regarding having guns, is I sat and wondered what would have happened if this took place down here where I live.

I think there's a good chance it would've ended there. From that kid's vantage point it would have been easy as pie to take out the two brothers. Bam, bam, and they're injured or dead.

But due to very strict laws nobody (or very few) have guns there.

And before somebody pipes up and talks about me, if I had shot them, being in trouble for shooting them I'll point out I'm in a Stand Your Ground state. I.e., self defense kicks-in if you shoot someone in defense of others. I.e., the police he was shooting at.

Ticker tape parade down here, prison term up North.

Fern

Yep and I just happen to be your neighbor looking out of my window when you decide to be the hero and now instead of just shooting at the police they are shooting the building I'm in and throwing bombs towards me and they kill me. Thanks asshole! No worries though you will still get your parade just be sure to wave to my grieving family as you pass them by on your float.

 

[Fern]

Yep and I just happen to be your neighbor looking out of my window when you decide to be the hero and now instead of just shooting at the police they are shooting the building I'm in and throwing bombs towards me and they kill me. Thanks asshole! No worries though you will still get your parade just be sure to wave to my grieving family as you pass them by on your float.

Bwuhahahaha

Fern

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Yep and I just happen to be your neighbor looking out of my window when you decide to be the hero and now instead of just shooting at the police they are shooting the building I'm in and throwing bombs towards me and they kill me. Thanks asshole! No worries though you will still get your parade just be sure to wave to my grieving family as you pass them by on your float.

There's enough straw there to feed a thousand cows for a whole winter.

Seriously.. do you have anything reasonable at all to contribute?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Well if you're going to armchair circumstances:

If I see the mugger coming when he's 5 ft away or more. Or if I'm in a store while it's being robbed and the robbers go too far. Or if I see someone else being attacked. Or if I catch someone about to break into my car (this one's actually happened when I didn't have a gun, I got lucky that time). Or hell, if I'm in the vicinity of a mass shooting with eyes on the shooter, depending on the situation I might even have a chance of doing something about that.

I could list a million more, and you could list a million where the gun would be worthless. Bottom line is having a gun gives me mucho options I wouldn't have if I was unarmed, and it doesn't hurt or hinder me to carry one. So I carry.

I was objecting to your use of the word "assurance," not the reality that having a gun gives you more options for self-defense. I'm staunchly pro-gun. But I don't like people saying that it gives them an "assurance" of safety, because, let's face it, you can never be 100% sure about that. Anti-gun people jump all over language like that and use it as an opportunity to ignore the larger issues; if you take away the availability of the semantic argument, the focus can fall squarely on the real debate. If you say that having a gun gives you better odds of defending yourself, well, it's hard to argue with that.

 

[sandorski]

If Kim Jong launches a nuke at the US and kills a loved one, I suspect many would wish they had their own nuke to use on little Kim first.

Absurd comparison? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

If Kim Jong launches a nuke at the US and kills a loved one, I suspect many would wish they had their own nuke to use on little Kim first.

Absurd comparison? Maybe, maybe not.

It's absurd because I think those same people would be pleased as punch if the US responded by nuking North Korea, which they almost certainly would. If the US responded by doing nothing at all, yeah, those people would be understandably pissed off. But, seriously, how likely is it that North Korea would detonate a nuke and kill an American citizen and our government wouldn't respond? It's not even worth discussing.

 

[sandorski]

It's absurd because I think those same people would be pleased as punch if the US responded by nuking North Korea, which they almost certainly would. If the US responded by doing nothing at all, yeah, those people would be understandably pissed off. But, seriously, how likely is it that North Korea would detonate a nuke and kill an American citizen and our government wouldn't respond? It's not even worth discussing.

Are there no Police to bring consequence to Criminals?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Are there no Police to bring consequence to Criminals?

What does that have to do with self defense? No one is arguing that people should have guns so they can form vigilante posses and hunt down wrongdoers. They're saying that it would be better to have a gun if a terrorist tried to invade your home so you could potentially repel him as opposed to dying because the police aren't there to save you.

 

[sandorski]

What does that have to do with self defense? No one is arguing that people should have guns so they can form vigilante posses and hunt down wrongdoers. They're saying that it would be better to have a gun if a terrorist tried to invade your home so you could potentially repel him as opposed to dying because the police aren't there to save you.

Does the social cost of easy access to Guns outweigh the risk of defending your home from Terrorists?

I would say, "No, not even close".

 

[Jaskalas]

Does the social cost of easy access to Guns outweigh the risk of defending your home from Terrorists?

I would say, "No, not even close".

Why terrorists? Home invaders are more common.

 

[irishScott]

I was objecting to your use of the word "assurance," not the reality that having a gun gives you more options for self-defense. I'm staunchly pro-gun. But I don't like people saying that it gives them an "assurance" of safety, because, let's face it, you can never be 100% sure about that. Anti-gun people jump all over language like that and use it as an opportunity to ignore the larger issues; if you take away the availability of the semantic argument, the focus can fall squarely on the real debate. If you say that having a gun gives you better odds of defending yourself, well, it's hard to argue with that.

Ah, I never interpreted "assurance" to be an absolute.

 

[Agent11]

Only death and taxes.

 

[werepossum]

Yep and I just happen to be your neighbor looking out of my window when you decide to be the hero and now instead of just shooting at the police they are shooting the building I'm in and throwing bombs towards me and they kill me. Thanks asshole! No worries though you will still get your parade just be sure to wave to my grieving family as you pass them by on your float.

Natural selection - you were the fellow who came to the gunfight with no gun.

In case you missed it, these are "people" who intentionally blow up children. They don't need provocation to kill you. You on the other hand need someone with a gun to prevent them from killing you. If your personal life philosophy precludes you from being protected by anyone except a duly authorized government representative, then be sure to bravely step in front of the guy with the gun. He can always fire from the safety of your body and everyone's happy.

 

[ivwshane]

Natural selection - you were the fellow who came to the gunfight with no gun.

In case you missed it, these are "people" who intentionally blow up children. They don't need provocation to kill you. You on the other hand need someone with a gun to prevent them from killing you. If your personal life philosophy precludes you from being protected by anyone except a duly authorized government representative, then be sure to bravely step in front of the guy with the gun. He can always fire from the safety of your body and everyone's happy.

I was the guy in my house on the second floor who was fired at because my neighbor wanted to be a hero, otherwise the gun fight would have been between the police and the attackers.

That's not Darwinism by the way.

 

[RampantAndroid]

And that applies here, how exactly? The police have told everyone to stay in their homes. They are worried that a guy may be breaking into houses. Your choices are, stay home with a gun to protect your family, or without one. What does that have to do with "pussies" or "hiding"? Do you think someone is going to "enjoy life" less just because he has more options?

This is a recurring theme from people for are for gun control; they call out people who carry guns as living in fear (not singling anyone out, pointing out something about the crowd in general) - this kept coming up in the George Zimmerman thread. These people however don't seem to realize that it's about NOT living in fear, that it's about going around knowing you're fine.

I carry a knife to work (pocket knife, not spring loaded, legal length and all that) because a coworker made it sound like they intended to end their life, and made it clear they did not like me. As a former firefighter and the Redmond PD made very clear to me, when people decide to end it, they often try to take someone with them. So my carrying a knife was simply about my wishing to be ready for the possibility that they're want to take me with them. I'd love to be better armed - frankly, with a baton. I'd far value a flick out baton in my jacket over a knife or a gun in many situations. But while I'm licensed to carry a gun concealed in WA (and will soon be licensed to carry a gun concealed in 32 states) I'm NOT allowed to carry a baton. Because it's a deadly weapon.

Anyway, on topic - it's not about being a 'pussy' - it's about being able to deal with anything that happens. As you so keenly pointed out, it's the difference between being able to do nothing should someone break in, or being able to protect yourself and your loved ones. Sure, you go about enjoying life. But what if the guy breaks in and kills your family. Maybe they would have preferred to live.