Gun violence the cost of Freedom to Bear Arms?

[Joepublic2]

Yes.


The light of truth has scattered the rats and cockroaches; their bitter tears and mewling of "injustice" now nothing but a barely remembered bad dream in decent, common folks' minds. We must remain vigilant and ready to stomp them with the boots of justice, however, for when the occasional over-bold gun control vermin shows itself.

 

[shortylickens]

 

[Thebobo]

It's definitely a breakdown in society. I grew up in the 50's. My generation had greater access to guns and knives than any generation since. Range safety was taught in public hs. Almost all boys carried pocket knives. No one ever went on a killing spree.

.

Well not no one, a simple search brings out one . Most you probably never heard of, there was no mass media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Starkweather

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Everyone knows there's a Downside, where's the Upside?

There is a downside to not having shit like the Patriot Act, Gitmo, the Department of Homeland Security, etc. Just as one can also say that there is a down side having a second amendment, or there is a down side to not trusting government in applying the death penalty and thus demanding it be banned or there is a down side to legalizing drugs, etc.

What are the up sides for supporting any of those issues in which you want to ensure that government does not over step its boundaries? Probably that freedoms are preserved for the individual in society and the balance between the state and the individual citizen is keep at a equilibrium in society if you consider the big picture.

 

[sandorski]

There is a downside to not having shit like the Patriot Act, Gitmo, the Department of Homeland Security, etc. Just as one can also say that there is a down side having a second amendment, or there is a down side to not trusting government in applying the death penalty and thus demanding it be banned or there is a down side to legalizing drugs, etc.

What are the up sides for supporting any of those issues in which you want to ensure that government does not over step its boundaries? Probably that freedoms are preserved for the individual in society and the balance between the state and the individual citizen is keep at a equilibrium in society if you consider the big picture.

Stop the Strawmanning.

Examples?[bolded]

 

[waggy]

It's definitely a breakdown in society. I grew up in the 50's. My generation had greater access to guns and knives than any generation since. Range safety was taught in public hs. Almost all boys carried pocket knives. No one ever went on a killing spree.

America is no longer a melting pot. We are a loose collection of disparate peoples in an isolationist society. We don't know our neighbors. We don't want to know our neighbors. We all want to be left alone. Kids want their parents to leave them alone. We create ever larger schools with permanent police forces because parents don't want to take responsibility. These huge schools encourage isolationism. The cycle repeats.

Kids are by definition, immature. Without parents and society even talking about, let alone enforcing, moral and ethical standards, society will continue to disintegrate. We will have more horrific stories of kids killing kids.

sure they still went on killing spree's. trouble is you didn't have access to nation news and 24 hour coverage.

Today we put the killer's face and videos on every news link. We glorify him and debate why he did what he did for WEEKS.

When you have someone like the latest killer who wants fame and thinks he deserves it for some weird reason. He knows he is going to eat up the news channels 24/7 for a few weeks.

I do agree that we went from teaching kids safety to teaching them to be scared of guns and knives (to a point).

 

[Zaap]

Well not no one, a simple search brings out one . Most you probably never heard of, there was no mass media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Starkweather

He was all over "mass media" as it existed at the time.

 

[Zaap]

sure they still went on killing spree's. trouble is you didn't have access to nation news and 24 hour coverage.

Today we put the killer's face and videos on every news link. We glorify him and debate why he did what he did for WEEKS.

And back in the day, the most famous writers in the world wrote books about them, and Hollywood made movies about them.

The public being fascinated with brutal murderers and debating about and 'glorifying' them for years on end is actually nothing new.

Other have touched on what IS new. The culture that shuns all responsibility for everything and allows deranged psychopaths a much much much more permissive and self-indulgent existence to commit even more mayhem in. Human nature doesn't change. Culture and what's acceptable does.

Of course, some people that only learn things from cartoons wouldn't know this...

 

[irishScott]

Given that gun violence would be around in the same numbers if we rescinded that right, no it's not.

Oh and gun violence is going down along with all violent crime, despite historically unprecedented firearm proliferation.

 

[Fern]

IMO, just points out the flaws in our background check system wrt mental health. We don't have a good system to report them and have their efforts to legally purchase guns stopped.

Fern

 

[bradly1101]

 

[Subyman]

It's definitely a breakdown in society. I grew up in the 50's. My generation had greater access to guns and knives than any generation since. Range safety was taught in public hs. Almost all boys carried pocket knives. No one ever went on a killing spree.

America is no longer a melting pot. We are a loose collection of disparate peoples in an isolationist society. We don't know our neighbors. We don't want to know our neighbors. We all want to be left alone. Kids want their parents to leave them alone. We create ever larger schools with permanent police forces because parents don't want to take responsibility. These huge schools encourage isolationism. The cycle repeats.

Kids are by definition, immature. Without parents and society even talking about, let alone enforcing, moral and ethical standards, society will continue to disintegrate. We will have more horrific stories of kids killing kids.

Yes, no one ever lynched people or hung them or made them drink out of different, shitty fountains or anything back then. It was the golden era.

 

[irishScott]

Wow, if you ever needed proof that gun control advocates are the ultimate ignorant uneducated simpletons...

What year was that and off of what statistics? According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports handgun homicides numbered 6,371 in 2012.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

 

[jpeyton]

Is that a special edition Smith .38? Anyone know where I can pick one up?

 

[irishScott]

Is that a special edition Smith .38? Anyone know where I can pick one up?

Nah, it was probably taken from a gun buy-back, had the barrel welded shut, and then painted, given the source.

 

[jpeyton]

Wow, if you ever needed proof that gun control advocates are the ultimate ignorant uneducated simpletons...

What year was that and off of what statistics? According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports handgun homicides numbered 6,371 in 2012.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

That's a very old flier. See the bottom, where it says "Handgun Control, Inc"? They changed their name to the Brady Campaign, which isn't the first time they changed their name either.

Even Bloomberg had to rename Mayors Against Illegal Guns. These gun control groups have to regroup and rebrand after every resounding defeat (in other words, very often).

 

[Subyman]

Wow, if you ever needed proof that gun control advocates are the ultimate ignorant uneducated simpletons...

What year was that and off of what statistics? According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports handgun homicides numbered 6,371 in 2012.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

If you stop looking at what guns do, you can directly compare homicide rates:

US: 4.2 per 100,000
UK: 1.2 per 100,000

11k handgun deaths in US vs 8 in UK, but the murder rate doesn't bare out that extreme difference. Obviously people in the UK find other ways to kill each other. There are much more diverse cultures in the US than in the UK though, so it isn't surprising we have more violence.

 

[Fern]

Is that a special edition Smith .38? Anyone know where I can pick one up?

Looks like a Colt to me, and I'd guess it to be a .357.

Fern

 

[cyclohexane]

Comparing an island nation of 24 million with a population density of 7 people per square mile to a nation of 318 million with a density of 89 people per square mile. Two countries with vastly different histories, cultures, and demographics.

the question was can legislation change behavior. As i pointed out, it apparently did for Australia. What's your point about differences in population and history?

By the way, the demographics between the US and Australia are very similar (at least more similar than any other country)

 

[irishScott]

the question was can legislation change behavior. As i pointed out, it apparently did for Australia. What's your point about differences in population and history?

By the way, the demographics between the US and Australia are very similar (at least more similar than any other country)

Not the gun demographics. Even at its peak Australians owned a fraction of the sheer number of guns the US does. We also have a very porous southern border that already brings in illegal guns, and would simply bolster the black market supply were severe restrictions put in place.

At present we literally have 100x more privately owned legal guns than Australia's legal and illegal gun ownership combined.
From a gun control lobbyist group's own numbers: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia

Put simply, there are too many guns in the US for gun control to be an effective crime deterrent. Laws only deter those that follow them; they only change the behavior of those that follow them.

 

[MongGrel]

Looks like a Colt to me, and I'd guess it to be a .357.

Fern

Yeah, was gonna say looks a bit like my King Cobra .357, which no one taking away in the near future.

Other than mine is a 4" barrel instead of what looks whatever, and better grips, looks almost identical.

Might be an old S&W. But probably not.

The release on the side looks Colt.

This is a really, really nice old S&W .38 Special.

 

[Genx87]

Wow, if you ever needed proof that gun control advocates are the ultimate ignorant uneducated simpletons...

What year was that and off of what statistics? According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports handgun homicides numbered 6,371 in 2012.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...able_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2008-2012.xls

I'd say at least 24 years ago as it lists West Germany.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Yes, no one ever lynched people or hung them or made them drink out of different, shitty fountains or anything back then. It was the golden era.

Hardly the "golden era." We were just better than you. :biggrin:

 

[Jhhnn]

We also have a very porous southern border that already brings in illegal guns, and would simply bolster the black market supply were severe restrictions put in place.

The vast majority of guns in Mexico originate in the US because of restrictive gun laws there. Remember F&F? You have your smuggling scenario backwards.

 

[TerryMathews]

The vast majority of guns in Mexico originate in the US because of restrictive gun laws there. Remember F&F? You have your smuggling scenario backwards.

Currently. However, Mexico allows private ownership of "non-military" calibers hence their affinity for the 38 Super.

Are you claiming that something other than the gun laws are behind the current smuggling scenario? Because if you're not, logic dictates that the parent poster is correct: a total ban of gun ownership in the US would simply reverse the flow of illegal guns and we would begin importing what is available south of the border.

The only nit you could pick is whether or not illegal guns come up currently, and I imagine one or two do. It certainly isn't a large statistic currently.