Gun thread: Using birdshot for home defense shotgun?

[NetWareHead]

Since I know this forum has a fair share of gun owners, what are your thoughts on using bird shot for a 12 gauge shotgun in a home defense situation? Remington 870 with 18" barrel. Friend of mine and I are in a debate and he feels that bird shot is enough to wound/stun a guy and then while the guy is stunned, he follows up with buck shot. I told him he watches too many movies and why would you not want to hit with anything BUT full force from the onset?

He cites examples that bird shot will "spread out" more and give you a better chance to hit an intruder. My take is what is even if the birdshot has a greater spread, what's the big deal with getting hit by birdshot? Yeah it may hurt ALOT but it wont stop or kill someone. Its like loading your shotgun with rock salt... Furthermore, due to birdshot haing such little mass in each pellet, I would think that the shot would lose speed quickly and have poor penetration.

Atot thinks?

Also, any recomendations for a home defense load for a 12 gauge for someone like me who doesn't want to fuck around with birdshot?

 

[olds]

No. Don't do it. No.

 

[SparkyJJO]

If you are ever in a situation where you have to pull the trigger, the intent shouldn't be to "stun" the perpetrator. And if you can't hit the target with buckshot you shouldn't be pulling the trigger in the first place.

 

[olds]

I recently saw on Tac TV that they were recommending #4.
But I still use #00

 

[highland145]

I recently saw on Tac TV that they were recommending #4.
But I still use #00

#4 3" magnums here.

OP have had the 870 18" for 20 years, love it.

 

[Vic Vega]

Shoot to kill, shoot to wound, shoot to stun, warning shots, etc are nonsense. You shoot to stop, plain and simple. Your goal is to stop the attacker so you shoot them enough to accomplish that.

The problem is you don't know what your attacker will look like (size, physical ability, drugged up, drunk, etc). Some attackers may stop when hit with bird shot, some might not. They will all lose motivation when hit was something more potent like 00 buckshot or even #4 or #2 buckshot.

 

[olds]

Years ago there was a story about a cop who had reloaded his own ammo. (I assume it was OK in his department then) He shot a BIG dude wearing a leather jacket and hopped up on PCP.
The guy kept coming at him because the rounds were so hot they were breaking up in flight and being absorbed by the leather jacket and they fact that the guy was on PCP and feeling no pain.

 

[brainhulk]

i have 3.5 inch slugs and 00 buckshot in mine...

 

[ichy]

Friend of mine and I are in a debate and he feels that bird shot is enough to wound/stun a guy and then while the guy is stunned, he follows up with buck shot.

If you want to stun someone use a taser. If you're in a dangerous enough situation that you're using a gun then you should be aiming to neutralize the threat ASAP.

 

[Merad]

If you want to stun him, shoot him with a taser. If you want to stop him, don't bother shooting him with birdshot.

 

[SP33Demon]

One of the advantages of a shotgun is that you can hit them through a wall. Birdshot doesn't accomplish this, so no.

 

[WackyDan]

Sorry... But if I ever point one of my firearms at someone and they do not cease their hostility/actions... Then I shoot to kill. Once, twice, or three times while they are facing me and still standing.

If you own a firearm and think that in self defensive use you merely want to injure the target/perp then I suggest you should not own a firearm and I suggest you start saving for your civil liability case when the fucker sues you.

Dead men tell no lies.

 

[highland145]

One of the advantages of a shotgun is that you can hit them through a wall. Birdshot doesn't accomplish this, so no.

Not a good idea. Might be your wife making your sammich. Then you'll starve.

 

[WackyDan]

One of the advantages of a shotgun is that you can hit them through a wall. Birdshot doesn't accomplish this, so no.

I can shoot anyone through a wall... even with my .22 barring it entering a stud. A shotgun has no special powers that a 9mm, .45 or other round has when it comes to penetrating walls...Wall board has very limited stopping power as does typical plywood OSB sheathing on exterior walls.

You've been watching too many movies.

 

[Vic Vega]

One of the advantages of a shotgun is that you can hit them through a wall. Birdshot doesn't accomplish this, so no.

Any firearm can shoot through walls. Doing so would be stupid. Not being able to identify and confirm what you are shooting at and what's behind it is not responsible gun ownership. You're playing too much CoD.

 

[Vic Vega]

Sorry... But if I ever point one of my firearms at someone and they do not cease their hostility/actions... Then I shoot to kill. Once, twice, or three times while they are facing me and still standing.

If you own a firearm and think that in self defensive use you merely want to injure the target/perp then I suggest you should not own a firearm and I suggest you start saving for your civil liability case when the fucker sues you.

Dead men tell no lies.

I hope no one takes this seriously. You shoot to STOP, period. If the bad guy dies as a result that's the risk he took but you shoot to STOP. If you hit a guy twice in the chest and he goes down and is clearly out of the fight but not dead you don't finish him off. The law does not allow for this and you will go to jail.

Shoot to STOP. You don't shoot to wound, to kill, to stun, etc. You put GOOD shots on target and keep shooting until they STOP attacking you. Until they STOP shooting at you, running at you with the knife, until they stop bludgeoning you with the tire iron.

Grand Jury: Why did you shoot poor Johnny?

You: I wanted to kill him, he was attacking me. I shoot to kill. <---------- You're going to jail.

You: I wanted him to stop hacking me up with that butcher knife, I had no choice, I had to STOP him. <--------- You're justified.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Birdshot if for birds.

 

[Jeeebus]

Take a look at videos on youtube demonstrating the spread of birdshot at typical home defense range. The difference in spread vs buckshot is negligible.

I use federal LE127OO buck in my defense shotgun. It feeds reliably and has minimal spread, out to 25 yards. f you're hit with it, it's going to be a shitty day for you.

 

[irishScott]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

 

[Red Squirrel]

If you aim for the eyes you can probably still kill the person. But better off with some kind of fully auto AR. Grenades are also good for if you run out of ammo. It's the American way.

Though being in Canada this type of stuff does not normally happen so not something I ever gave much thought. I have a crow bar in my closet "just in case" and I've never used it for anything other than pulling nails out of something or smashing stuff.

 

[irishScott]

I hope no one takes this seriously. You shoot to STOP, period. If the bad guy dies as a result that's the risk he took but you shoot to STOP. If you hit a guy twice in the chest and he goes down and is clearly out of the fight but not dead you don't finish him off. The law does not allow for this and you will go to jail.

Shoot to STOP. You don't shoot to wound, to kill, to stun, etc. You put GOOD shots on target and keep shooting until they STOP attacking you. Until they STOP shooting at you, running at you with the knife, until they stop bludgeoning you with the tire iron.

Grand Jury: Why did you shoot poor Johnny?

You: I wanted to kill him, he was attacking me. I shoot to kill. <---------- You're going to jail.

You: I wanted him to stop hacking me up with that butcher knife, I had no choice, I had to STOP him. <--------- You're justified.

Pretty much, but "shooting to kill" is also typically the most efficient way to "stop" the threat.

 

[Vic Vega]

Pretty much, but "shooting to kill" is also typically the most efficient way to "stop" the threat.

The results can be the same but the intention and action are different which is the larger part. Plenty of people involved in justified shootings are in jail because the intention and action were wrong.

For instance, if someone kicks your door in and is running up the stairs at you and you blast him in the chest from 5' with your 12 gauge shotgun and he goes down hard and falls down the stairs, he's out - he may die from the blast. If you shoot him three more times and turn him into hamburger while he's on the ground you're going to jail, even though you were justified in shooting him to protect your self and your home.

I get what you're saying though.

 

[olds]

I can shoot anyone through a wall... even with my .22 barring it entering a stud. A shotgun has no special powers that a 9mm, .45 or other round has when it comes to penetrating walls...Wall board has very limited stopping power as does typical plywood OSB sheathing on exterior walls.

You've been watching too many movies.

Good luck putting bird shot through a wall. If it did make it it certainly wouldn't stop anyone.

 

[highland145]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Interesting. I figured #4 3" magnums would be plenty. Might have to rethink my ammo. My shoulder does not appreciate the magnums anyway.

Going to look at some limb savers.

 

[NutBucket]

I hope no one takes this seriously. You shoot to STOP, period. If the bad guy dies as a result that's the risk he took but you shoot to STOP. If you hit a guy twice in the chest and he goes down and is clearly out of the fight but not dead you don't finish him off. The law does not allow for this and you will go to jail.

Shoot to STOP. You don't shoot to wound, to kill, to stun, etc. You put GOOD shots on target and keep shooting until they STOP attacking you. Until they STOP shooting at you, running at you with the knife, until they stop bludgeoning you with the tire iron.

Grand Jury: Why did you shoot poor Johnny?

You: I wanted to kill him, he was attacking me. I shoot to kill. <---------- You're going to jail.

You: I wanted him to stop hacking me up with that butcher knife, I had no choice, I had to STOP him. <--------- You're justified.

Yep. So I'll hand my wife the .357 and let her take care of it. She's defenseless, right?