Gun scenarios.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by fuzzybabybunny, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. fuzzybabybunny

    fuzzybabybunny Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,063
    Likes Received:
    2
    Just throwing scenarios out there and interested in what ATOT has to say. These are all assuming you have a gun.

    1. Guy holds you up at gunpoint and takes your wallet. He turns around to leave and you take out your gun and kill him. Justified?

    2. You see a guy holding up someone else with a gun. If you shoot the person in the head while his gun is pointed at someone, will his gun go off?

    3. If you shoot someone in self defense but fail to kill him, and he is laying there slowly and painfully bleeding to death, do you allow him to die slowly or essentially execute him? What would the law say if you did the latter? You do not have the know-how or self-protection to render aid.

    4. If you take out your gun to shoot someone in self defense but in the process kill an innocent bystander and the bad guy still escapes, what happens to you?

    5. If you take out your gun to shoot someone in self defense but in the process kill an innocent bystander in addition to the bad guy, what happens to you?

    6. If a bad guy is holding someone up and you draw your weapon and the bad guy kills the person being held up before being killed by you, what happens to you?

    7. If a bad guy sees you have a gun and takes someone as a human shield, what do you do? Do you lay down your firearm and very likely get shot while defenseless, or try to kill the gunman even though he has a human shield?

    8. If a person without a gun starts picking up stones and throwing them at you, can you use your gun to kill him?

    Probably more to come as I think of them.

    MOAR

    9. You see a man raping a woman at night. Should you immediately draw your weapon and shoot him dead, no questions asked?

    10. You are running away from a gunman hot on your tail and run into a room without an exit. You point your gun at the door to shoot the gunman as soon as he enters the room. There is motion, you shoot immediately, but it turns out you've just killed an innocent. What happens?

    11. You go into someone's yard at night to retrieve a soccer ball your son accidentally kicked into the guy's yard. While on the lawn the owner comes out aiming a gun at you. Do you draw and fire or do you not do anything and hope the owner doesn't kill you outright?

    12. There's a suicide bomber with a jacket full of explosives with a trigger in his hand and he looks like he may set it off soon. You are too far from any meaningful cover. Do you draw your weapon and fire at him?

    13. A guy is frantically running away from someone chasing him and he's screaming for help. Do you shoot the guy chasing him, no questions asked? You're not sure if the chaser has a weapon or not.
     
  2. OdiN

    OdiN Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2000
    Messages:
    16,431
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 - If you thought he still might cause you harm, yes.

    2 - Not necessarily, could happen.

    3 - If you shot someone, why isn't he dead?

    4 - You probably get charged with involuntary manslaughter.

    5 - See #4.

    6 - Maybe they would get you for brandishing? But you didn't harm anyone.

    7 - You should be good enough with your firearm to know what you can and cannot do, and take appropriate action. If that means running for cover, then so be it. If you know you can take the guy out, well I might.

    8 - If you fear for your life, it could be seen as justified.
     
  3. fuzzybabybunny

    fuzzybabybunny Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,063
    Likes Received:
    2
     
  4. OdiN

    OdiN Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2000
    Messages:
    16,431
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm no expert at knowing if a headshot would cause a reaction that would make the guys fingers tense. So I dunno. Never been in that type of situation and really wouldn't want to be.
     
  5. The Boston Dangler

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    14,649
    Likes Received:
    0
    if at any time you harm a bystander, you should and will be prosecuted. assault at best, manslaughter or a lesser murder at worst.

    1. MA = no way, TX and a few others = likely yes. Shoot him in the front, just to be safe. My friend lived in CO for a while, this is what the cops told him "If you shoot somebody, drag him back onto your property before I show up."
    2. maybe
    3. if you execute someone, you have murdered them
    8. stones are considered a deadly weapon
     
  6. jagec

    jagec Lifer

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Messages:
    24,442
    Likes Received:
    0
    Legally: If the defense successfully "proves" he was running away, and you did NOT give verbal warning, you might get in trouble. But if they held you up at gunpoint, you have a pretty good case for responding with lethal force.

    My thoughts: There are few times that it's justified to shoot someone in the back. Petty theft is not one of them. Rape or murder maybe.
    I really, really doubt it. Maybe if they already had their finger TIGHT on the trigger...but that means that they were going to shoot anyway. Also, the chance of them getting shot in the head causing them to fire their own weapon involuntarily, but not screwing up their aim, seems even lower.

    Legally speaking, "I fired twice in quick succession" would be your best defense. I can't imagine a situation where the prosecution couldn't use the "mercy shot" scenario against you, if the attacker was clearly incapacitated and you watched them bleed, then shot again.

    Calling 911, then watching them die, is probably the most legal way to do it.

    Legal sh!tstorm. Depending on the quality and disposition of the lawyers and families involved, and whether the local news is looking for another sensational story, you could get off scot-free or end up doing some time for recklessly firing your weapon. "Negligent manslaughter" or somesuch.

    Much like above, with a greater chance of getting away scot-free.

    Nothing, you did what you could. Someone writes an opinion letter to the editor complaining that you should have fired sooner, someone else writes a letter saying that if you hadn't been armed, no one would have died, and the city in general has a topic to debate around the water cooler.


    Mexican standoff. Unless you're Annie Oakley or they have a serious misunderstanding of "human shield", it's not worth firing with a handgun. It's almost as certain that you don't want to lay your weapon down. Try to talk it out, wait for the cops IMHO.

    Varies based on state. If you can make a good enough case that you were in fear for your life, you could well get away with it. Chances are higher in Texas, lower in California. Again, gives our P & N forum something to discuss.
     
  7. Epic Fail

    Epic Fail Diamond Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    6,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    A lot of the scenarios will end up as your words against a silent dead man.
     
  8. The Boston Dangler

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    14,649
    Likes Received:
    0
    this isn't the wild west. here in 2007, we have forensics.
     
  9. savoyboy

    savoyboy Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Guy holds you up at gunpoint and takes your wallet. He turns around to leave and you take out your gun and kill him. Justified?
    -If he turns around and leaves you alone, then he's no longer a threat. It's not justified for you to shoot him in the back. But you can draw out your gun, points at him and demands him to give your wallet back. If he tries to aim his gun toward you in a slightest degree, then you can shoot him.

    2. You see a guy holding up someone else with a gun. If you shoot the person in the head while his gun is pointed at someone, will his gun go off?
    -We call that the "startle effect". So yes, the gun will go off if he has his finger on the trigger

    3. If you shoot someone in self defense but fail to kill him, and he is laying there slowly and painfully bleeding to death, do you allow him to die slowly or essentially execute him? What would the law say if you did the latter? You do not have the know-how or self-protection to render aid.
    -You don't have to render him aid or anything like that. It's not illegal to render someone aid if you don't feel safe.

    4. If you take out your gun to shoot someone in self defense but in the process kill an innocent bystander and the bad guy still escapes, what happens to you?
    -Were you pray and spray without due regard for bystanders? This scenario is too vague and not enough details.

    5. If you take out your gun to shoot someone in self defense but in the process kill an innocent bystander in addition to the bad guy, what happens to you?
    -Same answer as above

    6. If a bad guy is holding someone up and you draw your weapon and the bad guy kills the person being held up before being killed by you, what happens to you?
    -Nothing will happen to you.

    7. If a bad guy sees you have a gun and takes someone as a human shield, what do you do? Do you lay down your firearm and very likely get shot while defenseless, or try to kill the gunman even though he has a human shield?
    -You seek for cover and do nothing. Never give up your weapon.

    8. If a person without a gun starts picking up stones and throwing them at you, can you use your gun to kill him?
    -Depends on the size of the stone and distance. If the stones are big enough and the distance is close enough to do serious damage, yes, you can legally shoot him in self defense.

     
  10. DangerAardvark

    DangerAardvark Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    7,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    2. There's a triangular spot, the points of which are your two eyes and the tip of your nose where if shot, the part of your brain responsible for reflexive muscle spasms is destroyed.
     
  11. imported_LoKe

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    19,734
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd do whatever's in my power to defend myself or someone else. The law doesn't come to mind in a situation like that, so planning out scenario's isn't likely to help.
     
  12. shortylickens

    shortylickens No Lifer

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    61,379
    Likes Received:
    76
    1 - 8: Depends on the state.

    In CA you will go to jail if you verbally abuse a minority who shoots you in the chest.
    In TX you get a medal if you shoot a guy who bad mouths Dubya.
     
  13. savoyboy

    savoyboy Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    0
    um, wrong.

    Running scenarios through your mind is one of the best way to train yourself when the shit hit the fan. It's called mentally ready.

     
  14. fuzzybabybunny

    fuzzybabybunny Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,063
    Likes Received:
    2
  15. DangerAardvark

    DangerAardvark Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    7,582
    Likes Received:
    0
    9. Shoot him in the spinal cord causing paralysis, then quickly vengeance-rape him before his bowels release.
    10. Put a knife in his hand.
    11. Do the Matrix move.
    12. Matrix move.
    13. Shoot the person being chased in the leg. This will confuse the pursuer, causing him to slowdown so you can get a better shot at him.
     
  16. OdiN

    OdiN Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2000
    Messages:
    16,431
    Likes Received:
    0
    9 - No. If you can, draw weapon and subdue and wait for cops. Have him lay flat out, then go stand on the back of his neck or something and don't take your sights off of him. If you can enlist help from anyone to tie up or something, you could do that. Or if you know he has no weapon and you know you can subdue him, do it that way.

    10 - This one is really going to depend on the case. Worst case - involuntary manslaughter.

    11 - You are on his property. He has the right to defend it. Put your hands in the air and announce intentions.

    12 - Might as well try if he's gonna go boom.

    13 - Even a cop wouldn't shoot someone in that situation...that would just be stupid.
     
  17. Kelvrick

    Kelvrick Lifer

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2001
    Messages:
    18,438
    Likes Received:
    0
    9- Yes
    10 - Depends on local law. Are you in your own home? Most likely, nothing.
    11 - He's aiming a gun at me, I doubt I can draw faster then he can pull the trigger. If he really wanted to shoot me, he wouldn't have revealed himself. I hope I can calmly explain to him the soccer ball. If not, I will abandon said soccer ball.
    12 - Yes, I would shoot him
    13 - Of course I wouldn't shoot no questions asked, but I most likely would draw.
     
  18. savoyboy

    savoyboy Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,574
    Likes Received:
    0
    9. You see a man raping a woman at night. Should you immediately draw your weapon and shoot him dead, no questions asked?
    -This scenario is very vague. Is the rapist 6'5" 250 lbs and you are 5'5" 120 lbs or vice versa? You have to get your hands on the rapist to stop what he's doing, but if that fails, then you can justify to shoot him. Remember not to shoot the woman because bullets have the tendency to over-penetrate. Shooting the rapist is the last resort.

    10. You are running away from a gunman hot on your tail and run into a room without an exit. You point your gun at the door to shoot the gunman as soon as he enters the room. There is motion, you shoot immediately, but it turns out you've just killed an innocent. What happens?
    -Probably negligence homicide on your part. I doubt they will throw the book at you.

    11. You go into someone's yard at night to retrieve a soccer ball your son accidentally kicked into the guy's yard. While on the lawn the owner comes out aiming a gun at you. Do you draw and fire or do you not do anything and hope the owner doesn't kill you outright?
    -I live in a very pro-gun state and you can't shoot anybody just because he's on your lawn. I guess you can shoot him in self defense

    12. There's a suicide bomber with a jacket full of explosives with a trigger in his hand and he looks like he may set it off soon. You are too far from any meaningful cover. Do you draw your weapon and fire at him?
    -Yes! we don't negotiate with suicide bombers. One .45 right between the eyes will be the most effective hit.

    13. A guy is frantically running away from someone chasing him and he's screaming for help. Do you shoot the guy chasing him, no questions asked? You're not sure if the chaser has a weapon or not.
    -You can't shoot the chaser unless you know what's going on. Weapon or no weapon is the key.

     
  19. wkabel23

    wkabel23 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, your questions suck. They are awful. Why would you shoot to kill someone from behind when there are obviously more practical shots to take?

    Go play counter strike.

     
  20. Googer

    Googer Lifer

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,552
    Likes Received:
    0
    fuzzybabybunny, I don't know what you are planning on doing; but I suggest you lock your self in a room before you wind up in jail.
     
  21. Specop 007

    Specop 007 Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. No, shooting someone in the back is BAD juju. Most DA's would probably go after you on that one.

    2. If you shoot him in the right spot no his gun wont go off. You need to make him DRT. Dead right there. Essentially the area around the nose. Anything else then total stopping of his controls and he may be able to fire his gun.

    3. You can execute him if he has a weapon close by. Claim he was going for it. Best thing about killing someone is YOU write the story. I would probably not be in the situation, best by the time he hit the ground he'd be so full of lead they could stand him up in the park. Regardless, I would not render aid.

    4. Depends on the DA.

    5. See 4

    6. Most likely nothing, again depends on the DA though.

    7. This is why I practice, practice and practice some more. We actually did a shoot like that. Here is a picture., See the orange hands? No shoot hostages! We had guys hitting the bad guys at 50+ yards with pistols. Granted I aint THAT good, but if their relatively close the bad guy better be stuck on that hostage like a fly on sh1t or he's gonna get drilled.

    8. If you feel your life is in danger, yes.
     
  22. pontifex

    pontifex Lifer

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2000
    Messages:
    43,023
    Likes Received:
    1
    There isn't really a definite answer on most of these questions. laws vary by state.
    also, how many people answering are lawyers? my bet is 0.

    while some may be right or possibly close, i would not take any of this advice seriously.
     
  23. Turin39789

    Turin39789 Lifer

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Messages:
    12,221
    Likes Received:
    0
    1no
    2i think no, and he/she would probably miss unless point blank if it did
    3die slowly
    4sued/jail reckless
    5sued/jail reckless
    6you get sued
    7shouldn't have pulled the gun in the first place. leave room/area
    8no
     
  24. IceBergSLiM

    IceBergSLiM Lifer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2000
    Messages:
    29,953
    Likes Received:
    0
    All of these depend on the state your in. In CT anytime a firearm is revealed it is the same as putting it to someone's head in the eyes of the law you have used deadly force. Whenever there is the threat of deadly force you have a right to self defense. Bottomline is whether or not your justified in your shooting....you will need many tens of thousands of dollars for a lawyer to keep you out of trouble.
     
  25. PrinceofWands

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    13,529
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Not if he's moving away and you shoot him in the back sort of thing, at least no where I know of. However if we ammend it, it may become legal. For instance he starts to leave, I follow him while on my cell phone to police, he turns and threatens, then I can kill him.

    2. Possibly.

    3. You can't honestly kill unless your life is in danger...however it'd be entirely possible to get away with it if there were no witness in your scenerio. Just quickly shoot him after he falls, then claim you emptied your magazine following his fall. That way it's all one long connected shooting. And yes, I'd probably do that. Anyone who attempts to kill an innocent deserves immediate death.

    4. You may be charged both criminally, and sued civilly. Neither is absolute, but the possibility exists.

    5. see 4 above.

    6. Impossible to say. They would have to prove that it was your action (and your action alone) which caused the shooting. That's VERY hard to do. You'd have all kinds of defense in this case. Even so it's not a gimmie.

    7. Never give up your weapon. Period. Get out of the situation if you can, take the shot if you have to. When you rescue someone in the water you are taught to place that person between yourself and potential danger (rocks, etc). That's because if you become injured you will both need saving. You could easily make the same argument here.

    8. The key is 'would a jury of your peers agree that you faced imminent harm'? If yes, go for it. If no, well, it's on you then. Any time you could be seriously injured or killed I say go for it...better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. But your safety really does need to be in jeopardy.