Gun Laws and Crime (OT)

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
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I am doing a rather informal presentation about gun laws and crime around the world and will be discussing:
a) problems related to proliferation of and easy access to firearms
b) are gun laws really effective?
c) discuss potential solutions to mitigate gun crime

I already have enough to talk about but just wanted to get some feedback from people who feel strongly about the issue.

So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Also, if you can find any photos of people with absurdly large collections or photos with guns that are somehow humorous or mind-boggling that will make good visual material as well. (e.g. I've seen a photo somewhere of a guy Zen meditating with dozens of weapons wall-mounted behind him, IIRC)

Disclaimer: I do not feel particularly strongly about this issue so I would like this to remain as calm a discussion as possible. That said, /flamesuit on

It's in OT because I have P&N banned on my forums list and there have been some good gun threads posted here in the past.
 

Canai

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2006
8,016
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I live in Wisconsin, one of two states to not allow any sort of concealed carry. There have been dozens of armed robberies and muggings recently in the smallish city I live in, about 250-300k people. I'd feel much safer walking outside if I could carry.

So in my view, no, gun laws are not effective, since they only prevent citizens from lawfully defending themselves should the need arise. The whole 'outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns' idea.

I felt the opposite before moving into the city from 20 or so miles out in the county, and living alone with quite a bit of electronics makes me wish that WI allowed deadly force in self-defense home invasion scenarios.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
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Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,806
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this statement "Also, if you can find any photos of people with absurdly large collections or photos with guns that are somehow humorous or mind-boggling that will make good visual material as well. (e.g. I've seen a photo somewhere of a guy Zen meditating with dozens of weapons wall-mounted behind him, IIRC) " seems to contradict your disclaimer. you want pics to make fun of gun owners? yeah, thats really unbiased
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,459
854
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I own a variety of guns but I do not carry nor is it legal for me to do so in this state...nor am I sure that I'd even want to, not all the time anyway. It would be nice to have that option from time to time but if I feel that I'm going to be in an area where there might be trouble I'd probably just bring it along anyway.

I lived in Los Angeles during the riots in the early 1990s and drove through an area on day two of the riots that was being actively looted. I drove through there every day for the previous 4 years so I knew it well and had always felt comfortable driving through there. Anyway, on this day I had a loaded Colt .45 semi-auto in my lap. I was driving to pick up my wife from work because my car was in the shop so we were sharing her car. I didn't deter any crimes with it, it was soley for my protection and that of my wife. It sure was comforting to have it in that situation.

I don't think that having the entire population armed is a good idea though. I don't believe that most people have the self control or even the desire to carry guns on them all the time, I have the self control but not the desire.

I also don't think that making guns illegal is a good solution. If you make guns illegal this only takes them away from law abiding people. Criminals will always find a way to get guns. Look at drugs, they are illegal yet drug use is still rampant.

There is no way to prevent all gun crime. I think the best solution is to be aware of your surroundings and to try to stay out of trouble or out of an area where there might be trouble. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a gun crime but, quite honestly, I don't know that being armed would drastically increase my chances of survival in that situation either.
 

DarrelSPowers

Senior member
Jul 9, 2008
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
Gun Control's Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.

Wow... I just read some of the sample cases in that article, they're ridiculous...

As for me, I've never owned or even fired a handgun, but I entirely support my right to own one if I had some money to spend...
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
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Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
Gun Control's Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.

Wow... I just read some of the sample cases in that article, they're ridiculous...

As for me, I've never owned or even fired a handgun, but I entirely support my right to own one if I had some money to spend...

if u google knife crime or follow british news, over the last year its been knife crime hysteria pretty much. calling for random stop and search and all that. a nice cycle of fear/more disarmament/continued crime with even more brazen criminals as the sheep are helpless/demands for more police power.....
 
Nov 7, 2000
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people are the problem
get rid of the people committing crimes and the crimes go away
need stiffer sentences for people committing violent crimes with firearms
 

Chiller2

Senior member
Aug 19, 2005
286
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People that will obey gun laws are not the people you have to worry about having guns.
 
May 16, 2000
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a) there are none
b) no
c) address cultural and socio-economic factors which lead to crime and aggression (especially using weapons)
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.

Any argument without data to back it up is an opinion, not an argument.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,328
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.

Fair enough, from what I've seen any graphs and statistical correlations used to "prove" that gun control is working are weak as hell.

Originally posted by: pontifex
this statement "Also, if you can find any photos of people with absurdly large collections or photos with guns that are somehow humorous or mind-boggling that will make good visual material as well. (e.g. I've seen a photo somewhere of a guy Zen meditating with dozens of weapons wall-mounted behind him, IIRC) " seems to contradict your disclaimer. you want pics to make fun of gun owners? yeah, thats really unbiased

Just looking for extremes. I've got a couple of pictures of rabidly anti-gun people protesting. IMO people with large collections of guns tend to be a bit more sane than those people...

e.g. a protester with the sign "Make me safe from ARMED violence"

That made me do a double-take. I'm not quite sure how banning certain "assault weapons" which are a small minority in gun crimes would help keep an unarmed person safe from criminals...
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.

Any argument without data to back it up is an opinion, not an argument.

Hardly. I wouldn't consider logic to be "data" and yet logic is more than sufficient.
 

OnePingOnly

Senior member
Feb 27, 2008
296
2
81
Chew on this... fuck gun control and all the libtard degenerates (UK members here included) that call for it. God, Guns and Guts won this country. We are not a socialist European country. Love it or leave it.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,459
854
126
Originally posted by: JRussellDMD
Chew on this... fuck gun control and all the libtard degenerates (UK members here included) that call for it. God, Guns and Guts won this country. We are not a socialist European country. Love it or leave it.

Chew on this...Fuck ignorant rednecks who think they can solve all the problems in this country by praying, blowing shit up, and thumbing their noses at the rest of the world. Look where 8 years of that dumbfuck mentality got us.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,255
403
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.

Any argument without data to back it up is an opinion, not an argument.

Hardly. I wouldn't consider logic to be "data" and yet logic is more than sufficient.
Logic is nice but people don't always act based upon it. Hence you have statistics that might show something different that otherwise you'd think "wtf?".
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
So essentially I am looking for people on both sides of the issue to put their strongest arguments forth and also for any statistics that may add to the discussion (graphs are nice).

Although this isn't really what you asked for, imo, any argument for or against gun control based on statistics is very weak. I would avoid them at all costs.

Any argument without data to back it up is an opinion, not an argument.

Hardly. I wouldn't consider logic to be "data" and yet logic is more than sufficient.

Only if the logic is pristine and there is no evidence to the contrary. Logic is great, but there's an awful lot of reality that isn't logical.
 

OnePingOnly

Senior member
Feb 27, 2008
296
2
81
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: JRussellDMD
Chew on this... fuck gun control and all the libtard degenerates (UK members here included) that call for it. God, Guns and Guts won this country. We are not a socialist European country. Love it or leave it.

Chew on this...Fuck ignorant rednecks who think they can solve all the problems in this country by praying, blowing shit up, and thumbing their noses at the rest of the world. Look where 8 years of that dumbfuck mentality got us.

Sorry that facts hurt, Jules. How do you think this country came to exist? I'm sure we asked the Native Americans their permission to royally fuck them all into near extinction and reap from their land for generations to come. Honestly, I wish the Natives had greater access to guns so they could've had equalized footing.

If you're so upset about President Bush being elected then why don't you take it up with your fellow countrymen as they put him into office. Domestic gun ownership rights are separate from the international bullshit that you're referring to (i.e. Iraq war) and I find it quite elementary how you're connecting the two.
 

RocksteadyDotNet

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2008
3,152
1
0
Aussie here.

Guns are basically illegal, and guess what? There is basically no gun crime here.

I've never seen a real gun, except on a cop, and I live in a city of 2 million.

But I think it only works because guns were never prolific here.

In the US there are too many guns in the wild to bring in a ban now.

EDIT - Spellin.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
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Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Aussie here.

Guns are basically illegal, and guess what? There is basically no gun crime here.

I've never seen a real gun, except on a cop, and I live in a city of 2 million.

But I think it only works because guns where never prolific here.

In the US there are too many guns in the wild to bring in a ban now.

Exactly. That is a key point and what makes the US distinct from almost every other first world country. The US has always had a very large number of guns and it has been a part of our society since its founding. Yes, we could stop gun crime by banning them all, but it is going to take at LEAST 50-100 years for it to fully take effect. Who would want to be around in the meantime?