GTX260 Redesign...

Tempered81

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
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yup. They're trimming them down again. 8 layer pcb, cheap cooling, new NV PWM, single phase, no Volterra VRM, etc...

It makes the 65nm original 260's look pretty nice.


 

nosfe

Senior member
Aug 8, 2007
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it's a good thing IF they'll also lower the price though how come they didn't make this when they went for 55nm?
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: nosfe
how come they didn't make this when they went for 55nm?

It's probably a learning process for them. Heck, cards we consider "low end" these days like the 9500 GT can run circles around complex, high end cards of yesteryear. That's just the way technology progresses. I don't know why it has to suprise and upset everyone. Lowering cost also helps profitability* now and allows future price moves. I see this as a natural progression. In five years we will probably be buying a half-height $50 graphics card with a baseline 2GB RAM that does not need additional power yet outperforms the current GTX 260. This redesign is just one step out of many in that direction.

*I know people HATE to see NVIDIA make money, but really, that's the nature of business. After all, you and I don't work for free, and neither do companies that people love to hate.
 

josh6079

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Mar 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: nosfe
it's a good thing IF they'll also lower the price though how come they didn't make this when they went for 55nm?

If they lower the price, what's the point in cutting corners with manufacturing costs?
 

AmdInside

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2002
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Sucks. Oh well. I guess in this economy, you have to find ways to cut costs anywhere you can.
 

edplayer

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Sep 13, 2002
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Originally posted by: josh6079

If they lower the price, what's the point in cutting corners with manufacturing costs?


Most companies like to operate in a manner which they make these things called "profits". If they lower the price of their product, all else being the same, they make less profit. If they can reduce the cost to make their product and lower the price, they are closer to the profits they were originally making vs the potential profit in the example above.


 

edplayer

Platinum Member
Sep 13, 2002
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I like this. Maybe now you can start seeing more sub $200 GTX cards.
 

nosfe

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Aug 8, 2007
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Originally posted by: josh6079
If they lower the price, what's the point in cutting corners with manufacturing costs?
increased marketshare?

@Zap
why not just let their board partners make custom designs? i never really understood why 90% of the cards from nvidia partners are reference designs with only a different sticker on the stock cooler, especially now that a lot of nvidia's partners moved away from only selling nvidia cards because of money problems
 

josh6079

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Mar 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: edplayer
Most companies like to operate in a manner which they make these things called "profits". If they lower the price of their product, all else being the same, they make less profit. If they can reduce the cost to make their product and lower the price, they are closer to the profits they were originally making vs the potential profit in the example above.

No need to be condescending. I understand the reasoning for cutting manufacturing costs but not for selling the product at a cheaper price after doing so. It's more profitable to cut costs to make the product while still keeping its price tag where it is. Otherwise you're going to be dealing with the same ratio you were at higher manufacturing costs/higher prices.

Originally posted by: nosfe
increased marketshare?
True, if the lower price tag would increase the number they sold considerably. However, enthusiasts are a primary sector for the 260's consumers and as such may also be turned off my the lack of things such as the Volterra VRM. As one member said earlier:

Originally posted by: jaredpace
It makes the 65nm original 260's look pretty nice.
 

nyker96

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Apr 19, 2005
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so what are the functional differences to the older version? can you still OC the same ? what about speed of this thing? what does colterra vrm matter? sorry for the newbie questions, not too familiar with the 260 design.
 

videogames101

Diamond Member
Aug 24, 2005
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10$ of 15$ could give this card the final tip in HD4870 vs GTX260, which is why they're doing this.
 

Cookie Monster

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May 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: nyker96
so what are the functional differences to the older version? can you still OC the same ? what about speed of this thing? what does colterra vrm matter? sorry for the newbie questions, not too familiar with the 260 design.

Spec wise, it remains the same with old GTX260. The only difference is that the PCB re-designed to be cost effective, but stilling doing its job at an satisfactory level. Initial GTX series cards used very expensive PCBs because it was very difficult to regulate/control the voltages on these cards. Hence these cards required more expensive components such as the volterra chip. What nVIDIA has done now is that due to the shrink to 55nm and higher density memory ICs, power requirements have loosened abit allowing them to cut PCB costs.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
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www.neftastic.com
Originally posted by: nosfe
Originally posted by: josh6079
If they lower the price, what's the point in cutting corners with manufacturing costs?
increased marketshare?

@Zap
why not just let their board partners make custom designs? i never really understood why 90% of the cards from nvidia partners are reference designs with only a different sticker on the stock cooler, especially now that a lot of nvidia's partners moved away from only selling nvidia cards because of money problems

The cost and effort in designing a PCB, particularly one of the number of layers video cards use these days, at the frequencies they run, and with the power requirements they have - it's a hell of a lot cheaper just to buy bulk reference stock from a designer-approved company, especially if you want to get it out the door in a reasonable time frame.

Originally posted by: nyker96
so what are the functional differences to the older version? can you still OC the same ? what about speed of this thing? what does colterra vrm matter? sorry for the newbie questions, not too familiar with the 260 design.

Odds are with cheaper MOSFETs and other power-related parts, they won't overclock as well due to stability issues.
 

nosfe

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Aug 8, 2007
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yes, but if you're big enough to be able to do it, it has to be worth it in the long run, otherwise there wouldn't be as many custom designs as there are on ati's side of the camp, though it could be that nvidia doesn't want its partners to make custom pcb's, and i can understand their point of view to a degree but still, i prefer that the partners get more flexibility. That goes for ati too but that's off topic so i won't go there

i wonder how the power consumption will be with these, it should be lower
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
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This isn't a surprise given news of similar cuts and changes were already circulating around the upcoming 40nm parts detailing Nvidia's plans to cut board costs:

Nvidia 40nm boards cutting up to 20% costs

On the high-end and overall I think this is bad news, as I think one of Nvidia's strengths has always been the quality of their reference designs and coolers, which also certainly impacts their historically excellent overclockability. Once you start lowering quality of reference and/or open design up to board partners, you open the door to associated problems as well.
 

josh6079

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Mar 17, 2006
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I agree. As someone who is in the market for a GTX 260 and saving up, it doesn't excite me to hear that the card I plan on getting could potentially become less flexible and made of lesser quality. While I'm not normally a fan of overclocking anymore, aspects such as cooling, cap. quality, and the overall circuitry of the board are important to me.

Some have even experienced some ill effects regarding this in benchmarks - even with the old pcb and circuitry. Link

As a negative, I have found the card?s circuitry is a bit louder (high frequency ?transistor? noise) than other video cards I?ve used, especially when the framerate is very high, such as when navigating in-game menus.
 

mhouck

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Dec 31, 2007
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"Another noticeable change is the PCB layer decreases from 10 to 8. The length of PCB keeps unchanged, while the height of it is reduced by 1.5cm."

I agree with the sentiments thus far and would only add, if Nvidia is going to cut any of the dimensions of the PCB, I vote for length first and foremost. I've never read anybody post "This card is too tall to fit in my case."
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
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Originally posted by: josh6079
Originally posted by: edplayer
Most companies like to operate in a manner which they make these things called "profits". If they lower the price of their product, all else being the same, they make less profit. If they can reduce the cost to make their product and lower the price, they are closer to the profits they were originally making vs the potential profit in the example above.

No need to be condescending. I understand the reasoning for cutting manufacturing costs but not for selling the product at a cheaper price after doing so. It's more profitable to cut costs to make the product while still keeping its price tag where it is. Otherwise you're going to be dealing with the same ratio you were at higher manufacturing costs/higher prices.

The the reason they *might* reduce the price is to sell more. If they they can maintain the same level of profit per unit but sell more, they make more. Plus, the GTX 260 is the direct competitor to the 4870 1GB so the idea is probably that any GTX 260 sold not only makes NV money, but also removes a potential 4870 1GB buyer.
 

josh6079

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Mar 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: nitromullet
The the reason they *might* reduce the price is to sell more. If they they can maintain the same level of profit per unit but sell more, they make more. Plus, the GTX 260 is the direct competitor to the 4870 1GB so the idea is probably that any GTX 260 sold not only makes NV money, but also removes a potential 4870 1GB buyer.

I acknowledged that in my response to nosfe's "increase marketshare" question 10 posts up.

Some enthusiasts are already turned off that the lower price comes at the cost of overclockability, cooling quality, and overall build superiority compared to earlier versions. Hence, a lower price may in fact have the opposite effect nVidia predicted when it comes to some consumers.

A little off topic, but how many different versions has the GTX 260 had already? Is it:

[*]GTX 260 core 192
[*]GTX 260 core 216
[*]GTX 260 core 216 55 nm
[*]GTX 260 core 216 55 nm degraded

or am I missing something?
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
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Originally posted by: nosfe
why not just let their board partners make custom designs?

Partners are allowed to make custom designs, except on the highest end products (which of course is a moving target). What makes you think they aren't? :confused:

Originally posted by: josh6079
A little off topic, but how many different versions has the GTX 260 had already? Is it:

[*]GTX 260 core 192
[*]GTX 260 core 216
[*]GTX 260 core 216 55 nm
[*]GTX 260 core 216 55 nm degraded

WTF is "degraded?"

All 65nm GTX 260 are "reference." All 55nm GTX 260 are "virtual" (meaning partners make it however they like).
 

Tempered81

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
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i think by "degraded" he means the 3rd generation gtx260. it talks about it in the OP, "Quite soon, the third-generation GTX260 design plan with codename of ?P897/D10U-20?".

so there was:

original 65nm 192 14 layer pcb
original 65nm 216 14 layer pcb
first 55nm 216 10 layer pcb
2nd 55nm 216 8 layer pcb (3rd generation aka 'degraded')

the 2nd 55nm is the one that is coming out soon, according to the expreview article. I used the PCB distinctions to differentiate between generations.
 

josh6079

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Mar 17, 2006
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Originally posted by: Zap
Originally posted by: nosfe
why not just let their board partners make custom designs?

Partners are allowed to make custom stickers, except on the highest end products (which of course is a moving target). What makes you think they aren't? :confused:

Fixed.

WTF is "degraded?"

I was just using it to indicate the GTX 260 P897 design.