Not when performance is less than a single card, as is often the case when multi-GPU scales poorly. Plus with ATi not offering end-user profiles there's no easy way to disable Crossfire in such games; at least with nVidia I can set a problematic profile to single GPU if need be.Originally posted by: Extelleron
With the 4870 X2, you get 90% the performance of the GTX 280 even when Crossfire scales 0%. When Crossfire scales even horribly, you get much better performance.
You don't have any valid evidence to make that claim. What we need is a demonstration that at a given framerate where previous solutions stuttered they don?t stutter on a 4xxx at a similar framerate, otherwise it?s just wishful thinking.And thankfully this time around there are no microstutter issues.
Is this some kind of a joke? Aside from the issues of input lag and micro-stutter plus general Crossfire scaling issues, there?s also the issue of general driver compatibility and robustness, especially for legacy titles. The fact is multi-GPU will always be less robust than a single GPU because it needs more driver coddling to prop it up.So there is really no reason NOT to get 4870 X2 at this time.
I?d say the GTX280+ will be quite competitive and even if so I?ll still be considering a single 4870 1 GB depending on what happens.Of course if GTX 280+ offers the same level of performance within a single GPU as the 4870 X2 does when it scales well, then that is another story and I'd recommend it over R700.
A drop in the bucket compared to the 90+ games I have under constant play rotation. You see to me a video card needs to do more than just provide good performance in a few cherry picked new titles.Then all the games in which CF does scale.... there is no competition.
That statement is not even close to being accurate.There are no real downsides.
No, the GX2 typically benches out higher than the GTX 280, remember that was the basis for all the fuss around GT200 not being worth it over older SLI/multi-GPU parts. GTX+ in SLI benches extremely well and scales very close to 4870CF/X2. And we've already seen 4850CF perform almost identically as 4870CF in many cases for half the price.Originally posted by: bryanW1995
9800gx2~gtx280, right? if 4870x2 is 45% faster than them, how is that roughly equivalent?
Originally posted by: hooflung
I see the band playing the microstutter music but I can't hear it. My SLI system doesn't have microstutter. My friends with 3870X2s, X1900XT CFs and 7800GT's don't see it either. Mine in 8800GS SC in SLI running on a x8 x 2 NF4 SLI. Until it becomes a problem, and Single GPU's don't have massive problems from BOTH brands, you can talk about microstutter until the cows are tipped it doesn't really mean jack squat.
Not when performance is less than a single card, as is often the case when multi-GPU scales poorly. Plus with ATi not offering end-user profiles there's no easy way to disable Crossfire in such games; at least with nVidia I can set a problematic profile to single GPU if need be.
You don't have any valid evidence to make that claim. What we need is a demonstration that at a given framerate where previous solutions stuttered they don?t stutter on a 4xxx at a similar framerate, otherwise it?s just wishful thinking.
Is this some kind of a joke? Aside from the issues of input lag and micro-stutter plus general Crossfire scaling issues, there?s also the issue of general driver compatibility and robustness, especially for legacy titles. The fact is multi-GPU will always be less robust than a single GPU because it needs more driver coddling to prop it up.
A drop in the bucket compared to the 90+ games I have under constant play rotation. You see to me a video card needs to do more than just provide good performance in a few cherry picked new titles.
That statement is not even close to being accurate.
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Not when performance is less than a single card, as is often the case when multi-GPU scales poorly. Plus with ATi not offering end-user profiles there's no easy way to disable Crossfire in such games; at least with nVidia I can set a problematic profile to single GPU if need be.
And how often does that happen? I've seen that sometimes with Quad SLI and in the rarest circumstances, 2-way SLI/CF. But that is a driver issue and it is not at all a common occurence. Unless you can name several modern games where the performance of the 4870 X2 is lower than the 4870 and this impacts gameplay, this is not a valid argument against it.
You don't have any valid evidence to make that claim. What we need is a demonstration that at a given framerate where previous solutions stuttered they don?t stutter on a 4xxx at a similar framerate, otherwise it?s just wishful thinking.
Sure I do. I am the one quoting evidence from people who have R700 cards in their hands and have done the tests, you are the one with no valid evidence to refute that claim. Unless you have an R700 in your hands and can show it has the same microstutter as R680, then you shouldn't be making such a statement.
Is this some kind of a joke? Aside from the issues of input lag and micro-stutter plus general Crossfire scaling issues, there?s also the issue of general driver compatibility and robustness, especially for legacy titles. The fact is multi-GPU will always be less robust than a single GPU because it needs more driver coddling to prop it up.
Once again unless you can prove microstutter exists on R700, then don't be using it as a argument against purchasing it. Legacy titles don't need Crossfire support. They are fast enough as it is. Multi-GPU is less robust, sure, but that doesn't refute what I said. You aren't sacrificing anything with R700, becuase you get between GTX 260 & 280 performance even when Crossfire doesn't work at all.
A drop in the bucket compared to the 90+ games I have under constant play rotation. You see to me a video card needs to do more than just provide good performance in a few cherry picked new titles.
If you have a list of 90+ games that don't scale with Crossfire where the 4870 X2 does not provide good enough performance without it, I'd like to see it. Quake III running at 300 FPS @ 2560x1600 24xAA not scaling with Crossfire does not count. ATI's driver team focuses on the titles where performance is necessary. The difference between 20 FPS and 30 FPS in Crysis is more important to consumers than the difference between 200 FPS and 300 FPS in a 5 year old game. I highly doubt that you can name more than a few games where the performance of the 4870 X2 is not adequete, and in those, I doubt the GTX 280 is any better.
That statement is not even close to being accurate.
It is accurate in terms of performance. The only problem I see with R700 is power consumption. Other than that.... if you want ultimate performance there is no other option. If it consumed less power and I hadn't purchased a GTX 280 w/ step-up path I'd buy it as soon as it comes out.
I completely agree Extelleron. Side note, I've never seen a moderator go to such extreme lengths to downplay a card before, it REALLY makes me question whether or not this guy should be moderating this forum. We have enough paid Nvidia zealots as it is that sour any non-Nvidia related discussion.
So you think ATi will release hotfixes for five year+ games to allow Crossfire to work properly if I tell Derek about it? What if they don?t? What then?Originally posted by: MarcVenice
All these 90 games you're talking about, why aren't you reporting them in the thread made by Derek, so anandtech can bench them, and have ATI release a magic hotfix?
That?s great for you but I?m willing to bet I have much stricter standards around backwards compatibility than you do. As I browse through nVidia?s list of SLI supported games I can see many of my titles not there and I?m almost certain nVidia have more profiles than ATi.I don't think I've seen you post a single game where crossfire doesn't scale like it should, in fact, the whole thread is a bit of a dissapointment, because barely any1 is reporting any games that don't scale well with SLI/CF, even though people like you keep touting the big horn on how horrible CF scaling is.
So if I run out and buy a 4870 X2 will you reimburse me if I?m not satisfied? No? Then why do I need to throw money at a problem just to prove you or anyone else wrong?Come on man, own up, or stop coming of strong and demolishing people's post where YOU don't show any evidence either?
It doesn?t matter how it often it happens; the point is that it happens and it?s naïve to think you?ll get the same performance and compatibility of a single card when the driver doesn?t scale.Originally posted by: Extelleron
And how often does that happen? I've seen that sometimes with Quad SLI and in the rarest circumstances, 2-way SLI/CF. But that is a driver issue and it is not at all a common occurence.
Modern titles? As in the dozen or so cherry picked ones that are passed around in these kinds of discussions that reviewers use? Like I said that?s not even close to being good enough for me.Unless you can name several modern games where the performance of the 4870 X2 is lower than the 4870 and this impacts gameplay, this is not a valid argument against it.
Where? Show me these tests.Sure I do. I am the one quoting evidence from people who have R700 cards in their hands and have done the tests, you are the one with no valid evidence to refute that claim.
Unless you have an R700 in your hands and can show it has the same microstutter as R680, then you shouldn't be making such a statement.
Uh, no. Micro-stutter is inherent to AFR and as such the burden of proof is on you to show it doesn?t happen. Otherwise you have no business claiming otherwise.Once again unless you can prove microstutter exists on R700, then don't be using it as a argument against purchasing it.
Utter rubbish. Why don?t they need Crossfire support? I expect a single card to support them and deliver optimal performance so why should multi-GPU be treated differently, especially if you?re paying more money for it?Legacy titles don't need Crossfire support.
Fast enough for whom? What if nVidia put a driver cap of 30 FPS on your GTX280 and told you accept 30 FPS as fast enough? Would you be happy with that?They are fast enough as it is.
Like I said earlier claiming everything works like a single card when it doesn?t scale is naive. In fact based on your comments I wonder whether you?ve used a recent multi-GPU implementation in a good cross-section of games.You aren't sacrificing anything with R700, becuase you get between GTX 260 & 280 performance even when Crossfire doesn't work at all
If the single card delivers optimal performance in the same situation then multi-GPU shouldn?t be any different.Quake III running at 300 FPS @ 2560x1600 24xAA not scaling with Crossfire does not count.
And there it is. ?Multi-GPU is great except for all these situations??, and that?s when proponents of the technology start listing justifications as to why you should accept said limitations.ATI's driver team focuses on the titles where performance is necessary.
Uh, how about when the driver doesn?t work properly and you get performance worse than a single card? How about general driver incompatibilities such as rendering glitches?I highly doubt that you can name more than a few games where the performance of the 4870 X2 is not adequete, and in those, I doubt the GTX 280 is any better.
If by ultimate you mean ?gets bigger graphs in a few modern games in exchange for input lag, micro-stutter and/or more driver issues in legacy titles? I agree with you.Other than that.... if you want ultimate performance there is no other option.
Apparently you still don?t get I'm criticizing multi-GPU in general.Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Side note, I've never seen a moderator go to such extreme lengths to downplay a card before,
Look, I'm getting mighty tired of this shit. Last month it was claimed I'm a paid ATi shill and now I'm a paid nVidia zealot.it REALLY makes me question whether or not this guy should be moderating this forum. We have enough paid Nvidia zealots as it is that sour any non-Nvidia related discussion.
I don't really care what you "call". You think what you like while I?ll continue to play my games and pick the hardware that works best for me.You really have a 90+ game rotation? I call bullshit man, what a joke.
If they're so committed why have they still not allowed custom profiles like nVidia? Why do ATi users have to resort to renaming executable names and play the guessing game in an effort to get scaling in unsupported games?ATI is committed to getting compatibility better with each driver revision and now that multi-GPU is the way of the future it only makes sense for them to improve.
Rofl, I don't think they can take action because they've already let such baseless accusations go for months by many of the same individuals. Taking action now would come off as extremely preferential.Originally posted by: gersson
I think BFG is very nice cos he could have given some folks a vacation for accusing him of being paid by Nvidia without base.
If the games are over a month old or have been reviewed a few times showing poor scaling, maybe. New games out of the box historically have horrible CF/SLI support, so you basically have to wait for a month or more hoping for a profile and driver update. You won't hear much about it here because people recommend CF/SLI but don't actually use it. Game-specific or vendor forums are much better resources for problems and fixes.Originally posted by: RussianSensation
As it stands now for the majority of "popular" selling titles out of the box 4870x2 delivers the best performance for the $ between it and GTX280.
Actually I find SLI/CF worst as many games I purchase fall into this category. From what I've seen it can take months before SLI/CF is supported in new releases, at which time I may have moved on to a different game. I certainly would hate waiting for a CF/SLI fix before I could take advantage of performance I already paid more for.Originally posted by: BFG10K
For someone that only plays modern games straight off the shelf, plays through them once and then moves on might well find multi-GPU is great but for me that situation is not even close to being good enough.
Low Minimum Framerates (CP5670 mentioned) - SLI/CF for whateve reasons tend to have much lower minimum framerates than single-GPU solutions. You may not see the difference in AVG FPS as the CF/SLI solution may make-up the difference by rendering less intensive frame sequences at a higher rate.
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Nvidia has a history of doing a paper launch to coincide with the release of better performing ATI parts.
I hope they break with their tradition
Originally posted by: g00n
EVGA Step-up question...
I was wondering, does EVGA even consider the GTX+ a NEW base model? I know you cant step up from say a 8800GT to a 8800GT SUPERCLOCKED "SC" model as they are considered the same base model. Does EVGA acknowledge the GTX+ as a whole new line - the successor to GTX or simply an enhanced version of that base? They should... If so, then you technically still couldn't go from a 9800gtx+ to a GTX 260+ (GT200b 55nm) and jump over the 260 regular could you? Or, since the 9800gtx+ did come out AFTER the 260 in time, do they acknowledge that and let you jump to the next best release within 90 days even though there is an upgrade model in between?
Originally posted by: SolMiester
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Nvidia has a history of doing a paper launch to coincide with the release of better performing ATI parts.
I hope they break with their tradition
What?, you are confused!. That was ATI x18 & x19 series!