Gruber gets grilled tomorrow

[Zorkorist]

Some of us are okay, that ObamaCare is set in stone, and not to be moved. We don't like it. But, we admit it is the new way in America today.

It can't be overturned without a huge majority, etc.

It's done. America is a Socialist country.

-John

I guess, now that we are Socialist, can we get rid of Democracy too?

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I volunteer to be the first King.

It's good to be the King.

-John

 

[fskimospy]

I guess, now that we are Socialist, can we get rid of Democracy too?

-John

You realize that every country is socialist to some extent, right?

It is simply a matter of degree.

 

[Zorkorist]

Capitalism, is the principal that our nation was founded upon. Freedom.

Not some Socialistic Utopia.

Russia, and Communism, Marxism, those are the people you seek.

Our country was founded on individualism, freedom, and capitalism.

-John

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

You realize that every country is socialist to some extent, right?

It is simply a matter of degree.

I'm just curious as to why you think that is a good thing.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm just curious as to why you think that is a good thing.

Just take a look at the countries that aren't. Democracy and mild socialism are natural companions.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Just take a look at the countries that aren't. Democracy and mild socialism are natural companions.

Define your version of mild socialism

 

[Zorkorist]

Just take a look at the countries that aren't. Democracy and mild socialism are natural companions.

/me giggles like a school girl.

-John

 

[fskimospy]

I'm just curious as to why you think that is a good thing.

Because of its repeated, demonstrated effectiveness?

I like things that work instead of things that conform to a particular ideology. Your mileage may vary.

 

[fskimospy]

Capitalism, is the principal that our nation was founded upon. Freedom.

Not some Socialistic Utopia.

Russia, and Communism, Marxism, those are the people you seek.

Our country was founded on individualism, freedom, and capitalism.

-John

Capitalism and socialism are not a yes/no. All societies are somewhat capitalistic and somewhat socialistic. It is a continuum.

Our country was absolutely founded with the idea that certain things would be socialized. There is no arguing this.

 

[Zorkorist]

The only Socializing interest, is Government. Duh. Government.

But, our Government was established to:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Not socialize shit.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

I hope I don't have to go all civics class on you, and help you read the Constitution of the United States of America.

Or maybe I should, as too many of you seem to have forgotten where we came from.

-John

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Our country was absolutely founded with the idea that certain things would be socialized. There is no arguing this.

For example?

Edit: And don't bring up that "police/fireman/rescue services are forms of socialism" bullshit either. That is completely unrelated to the subject at hand.

 

[Zorkorist]

If the Declaration of Independence wasn't enough, they came back and posted an additional, Bill of Rights.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

 

[Zorkorist]

No where in there do I see Socialism.

It's pure Government/Citizen, relationship.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

A relationship that has historically fostered individualism, freedom and capitalism, and made America the best country in the world.

-John

 

[OverVolt]

Oh boy, the conservatives have got Obummer on the ropes now!!

They are going after a consultant, that was hired nearly a 1/2 decade ago on something that is currently proven to be something people want and provides a benefit.

Go get'em kid!

Do you even have health insurance? Because everyones deductibles are skyrocketing. Maybe you just never had good health insurance and don't know the difference, who knows.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Do you even have health insurance? Because everyones deductibles are skyrocketing. Maybe you just never had good health insurance and don't know the difference, who knows.

My deductibles went up. My co-pays went up. My payments went up. And the quality went down. And not just by a little.
And it is expected to continue to deteriorate over the coming years. Perfectly good insurance back in 2010 -- not any more.

This is what Progressives consider 'progress'? Sorry, but I can't handle much more Hope & Change like this...

 

[ivwshane]

No where in there do I see Socialism.

It's pure Government/Citizen, relationship.

-John

No where do you see the words capitalism, capitalist or free market, either but I guess you are too stupid to know that

 

[Moonbeam]

The only Socializing interest, is Government. Duh. Government.


"We.........

Not socialize shit.

-John

Would you look at that..... Not I the individual, but we the people..... I had no idea I lived in a communist state. I did, however, learn what words imply.

 

[fskimospy]

For example?

Edit: And don't bring up that "police/fireman/rescue services are forms of socialism" bullshit either. That is completely unrelated to the subject at hand.

Oh, so the things you like to be socialized don't count as socialism. Gotcha. How about transportation infrastructure. Does that count as socialism? How about communications infrastructure (post office). Does that count?

It is a clear and inescapable fact that the country was designed to be socialistic in some ways. The only question is how socialistic we want it to be, it is not a yes/no question.

 

[fskimospy]

My deductibles went up. My co-pays went up. My payments went up. And the quality went down. And not just by a little.
And it is expected to continue to deteriorate over the coming years. Perfectly good insurance back in 2010 -- not any more.

This is what Progressives consider 'progress'? Sorry, but I can't handle much more Hope & Change like this...

Do you have individual or group insurance? How did it change and when?

Health care inflation is at its lowest levels in a very long time. Millions of additional people are covered. There is no statistical evidence of a decline in quality. That's success by any reasonable, non-ideological measure.

I will never understand why you guys so desperately want things to be bad. Sometimes it's just okay to admit you were wrong.

 

[Moonbeam]

Do you have individual or group insurance? How did it change and when?

Health care inflation is at its lowest levels in a very long time. Millions of additional people are covered. There is no statistical evidence of a decline in quality. That's success by any reasonable, non-ideological measure.

I will never understand why you guys so desperately want things to be bad. Sometimes it's just okay to admit you were wrong.

This is true for those seeking to understand reality via facts. If you are wrong on the facts you adjust your thinking to accommodate to better data, changing circumstances, etc. This is not true if you are practicing a religion based on assumed facts. If you have one fact wrong there, your religion collapses on your head and all the ego identity gratification your certainty bought you as a practitioner of The True Good sieves like sand through your fingers. One single wrong fact can expose the literalist fanatic to the reality of uncertainty and doubt he is too cowardly to face. These are folk who are in protective custody and have forgotten their real identities. One piece of real information that calls into question their false identity could expose them to the Mafia and death. Their safety as actors depends on how deeply they believe in their part.

The Republican party is having a contest for leadership. "Any delusion you believe in I believe in better."

 

[werepossum]

I'm just curious as to why you think that is a good thing.

I'm highly suspicious of socialism, but it is a basic requirement of civilization. If one is alone in the wilderness, one has ultimate freedom, but little security or opportunity. One can be anything one wishes to be - doctor, lawyer, Indian chief - but unless one wishes to be something that produces food, one will starve. As there are more people, they can choose to give up some freedom in return for more security and/or opportunity. (Remember that it's those who give up essential liberties, not any liberties.) The trick is to balance socialism to guarantee the most security and opportunity for the least cost in, and threat to, liberty.

That said, Obamacare is here. It has winners and losers, and it caused a significant societal upheaval with its very poor implementation. Like most people here I'm one of Obamacare's casualties, but those not breathing the smoke coming out of Obama's ass knew our expenses would have to go up and our quality of service go down to insure all the new people, and so far at least I've lost little enough that I want to see the replacement implemented and proven on a state level before Obamacare is abolished. Otherwise we've wasted a great deal of resources and suffered two great societal upheavals to be exactly where we started.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm highly suspicious of socialism, but it is a basic requirement of civilization. If one is alone in the wilderness, one has ultimate freedom, but little security or opportunity. One can be anything one wishes to be - doctor, lawyer, Indian chief - but unless one wishes to be something that produces food, one will starve. As there are more people, they can choose to give up some freedom in return for more security and/or opportunity. (Remember that it's those who give up essential liberties, not any liberties.) The trick is to balance socialism to guarantee the most security and opportunity for the least cost in, and threat to, liberty.

That said, Obamacare is here. It has winners and losers, and it caused a significant societal upheaval with its very poor implementation. Like most people here I'm one of Obamacare's casualties, but those not breathing the smoke coming out of Obama's ass knew our expenses would have to go up and our quality of service go down to insure all the new people, and so far at least I've lost little enough that I want to see the replacement implemented and proven on a state level before Obamacare is abolished. Otherwise we've wasted a great deal of resources and suffered two great societal upheavals to be exactly where we started.

You're right about the initial cockup in implementation. That's now behind us. 'Nuff said, right?

I think you're ignoring all the indirect money paths of the old system & the tax subsidy from very high earners. You merely allege reduced quality of service, as well, in a rather vague fashion.

In the old system, costs associated with indigent care & non-payment were padded into the bills of the insured that were sent to insurors. Rates were obviously affected. Uninsured working people often obtained care only when disaster struck and then from ER visits rather than clinics. Treatable conditions were often ignored or undetected, leading to dire & expensive situations when care became mandatory. It will take years for the beneficial effects to become apparent.

The tax/subsidy scheme has brought considerable new funding to healthcare, above and beyond what the old system provided from employer & individual plans & copays.

I also think it's important to realize that opponents often cite edge cases in their denunciations, often higher income people who found ways to game the old system to their advantage or very high utilization health plan participants. They also like to cite "reduced services" that aren't really reduced services in any real world fashion. They cite potential rather than what really happens. What real world consequences have you experienced from what you cite as reduced services?

Explore alternatives? Like what, in the real world? What sort of realistic proposals have you seen? All I've seen is the "kill it now & we'll talk about it afterwards" sort of reasoning that would leave millions in the lurch so that a dysfunctional Congress biased towards serving the most wealthy among us can mull it over.... extolling the virtues of Freedumb! as they make their deliberations.