Ground wire cost

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
619
121
My house was built in 1977 and many of the outlets are not grounded, including the outlets in the room where my gaming computer is at. So I was thinking of having an electrician wire up ground to at least one outlet for my computer. Does anybody know how much that would cost?
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,154
635
126
A lot. Might as well just have new circuits pulled in key areas. The cost is basically the same (a lot). Grounding as far as your computer is concerned is just for safety. Why are you concerned about grounds?

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
619
121
Ah, figured as much. Well, I have a nice surge protector and I want to get a UPS in case of a power outage and I know those should be grounded.I also once touched the side of my PSU to feel for heat and the computer rebooted and wouldn't start until a few cycles latter. If I can remember, I think I actually had to remove the CMOS battery.

I'm not rich so it won't happen. :(
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,154
635
126
Eh, they should be grounded but it's fine. When the power goes out the neutral is still connected and it bonded to ground in at the panel. It's only a safety issue when you pull the plug on an UPS to test it.
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
If you gfi protect those circuits, you will be up to code for what you have, though I don't see too much point in it. That age house probably has a federal-burnitdown-pacific panel, gfci breaker for that is probably $50+ each.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
I don't understand. A GFCI needs ground to operate correctly.

Incorrect. A GFCI circuit is frequently recommended when a ground wire is not present. Ground wires are unnecessary on GFCIs as they monitor for an imbalance on the current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is a mismatch, that indicates a fault of some kind and they trip.
 

TennesseeTony

Elite Member
Aug 2, 2003
4,352
3,815
136
www.google.com
Ungrounded GFCI still works? Interesting...may find many more GFCI's in my house soon.

In other news, I recently installed a new (but faulty) GFCI, which fed a grounded-metal-case power strip. I powered the circuit and all was well according to my plug-in tester and multi-meter. Tested the GFCI by pushing the test button, while leaning on the wall mounted power strip, and was 'shocked' to see it dumped the HOT to ground...and my hand.

EDIT: Tip: Even if an outlet box isn't grounded, installing a GFCI in it will still protect you (and your tools and appliances) from ground faults. But an ungrounded GFCI can't safeguard sensitive electronics, such as a computer or phone, from the interference caused by stray currents. The National Electrical Code requires you to stick a label on the receptacle that reads, "No equipment ground." These labels come in the box with a new GFCI.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
619
121
I thought the purpose of a GFCI was to monitor a fault to ground. Hence why it needs to be grounded.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,505
377
126
Nope. I suspect the name "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter" is because this device does not DETECT a Ground Fault; it compensates for a faulty Ground by using a different technique.

In a "normal' circuit with a Ground, the outer chassis of the device you have plugged in is connected to a true Ground via a bare wire in the power cable, all the way back to the breaker panel where it is connected to a true earth Ground. The Ground lead is supposed to carry NO current under normal circumstances so it's at zero volts, and it is just as heavy as the current-carrying Hot and Neutral wires in the cable. So if ever there is a fault in the user device that allows current from the Hot side to leak into an exterior surface that could be touched by people, that current will flow through the Ground lead to earth. This has two important consequences: the current flows easily to Ground so that the voltage at the external surface of the user device is still VERY close to zero and unlikely to cause damage to the person; and, the current flowing in this manner is VERY likely to be so heavy that it will overload the breaker for this circuit at the panel, cutting off power to the Hot lead in a very short time, and thus eliminating the hazard.

BUT, what would happen if the Ground lead were faulty - broken, or badly connected with high resistance to true Ground? The leaking current might not be enough to trip the breaker, and the device surface voltage might be high enough to cause real injury.

A GFCI unit does its job differently. It constantly measures the current flowing in both the Hot and Neutral leads and compares. In a properly-operating circuit, these MUST be equal. If they are not - I believe the tolerance for "not equal" is 5 mA at max, which is not enough to cause disruption to heart muscles when run through a chest - the unit shuts off the connections from the source wires (from the breaker panel cable) to its output connections, thus stopping all current flow. This action does NOT need a Ground lead to function at all. So, if the Ground lead has failed, it still works. In older homes that never had grounded cabling to wall outlets, some electrical authorities accept using a GFCI instead of grounded wiring because it can protect people from stray current flows going to the wrong place. BUT without a real and well-connected Ground lead, a GFIC cannot provide some of the other uses of a true earth Ground. Like, for example, a place to "get rid" of electrical noise signals generated in the outer and inner chassis metal of many devices.

Many jurisdictions mandate having GFCI devices protecting circuits into areas that use water a lot, like kitchens and bathrooms. The idea is that in normal daily use it is possible that water might enter one of the user's plugged-in devices and cause a current leakage path to develop either to the device's exterior, or to a surrounding surface like a counter top or floor. In some such cases the current flow to Ground might be sufficient to cause a breaker trip, but might not. On the other hand, such a leakage path definitely would cause the current flows in Hot and Neutral lines of the power supply to become different (by the amount of leakage current, no matter where it is going) and a GFCI would shut the circuit off to protect people.
 

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
I thought the purpose of a GFCI was to monitor a fault to ground. Hence why it needs to be grounded.

It does monitor for a ground fault; which is basically unexpected current flowing to ground (no matter how it gets there. ground in this case does not mean a ground wire necessarily).

The presence of a ground wire merely serves as a conduit to channel this unwanted current flow to somewhere safe (the earth).

GFCIs handle the ground fault differently and dont just channel it away but actively open the circuit which stops the current flow.

So in other words I should just install a GFCI?

Having a true ground is beneficial for electronics as it gives electric noise and generated interference a place to go. And its extra safety. If your computer room is in an easily accessible place to run a new wire to, the labor cost is small. If you have to start snaking and making it past obstacles is when the labor cost starts to pile up.
 
Last edited:

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
So I was thinking. Doesn't a surge protector or UPS need a ground?

A good rule of thumb is if the appliance carries a third grounding prong, then it needs a grounded outlet. You've probably seen the warning on not to defeat the purpose of the ground by removing the grounding prong from the plug.
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
So I was thinking. Doesn't a surge protector or UPS need a ground?
Netwarehead is absolutely right, but the suppressor doesn't need the ground to perform its function (cheap ones are nothing more than a fused hot wire), just to offer a ground to items that need it.
I feel like they're largely useless, outside of the ability to plug so many things in. If you're concerned, install a transient voltage surge suppression device in your panel. They're relatively cheap these days, and they work FAR better than I would have guessed before installing large commercial versions. What brand is your panel?
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,757
619
121
I don't know man. I know from looking at the outlets and adding new reciprocals there are no grounds. Some of the house has ground, most does not.
 

Mike64

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2011
2,108
101
91
I don't understand. You say your house was built in 1977, but as of 1962 the NEC required grounded receptacles for residential use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code#Requirements
Bear in mind that the NEC per se isn't "law", and not all jurisdictions have given it and its myriad revisions the force of law at the same time, or indeed, in some places at all. (I'm not sure what the deal is here in NYC currently, for example, but at least until fairly recently, we had our own electrical code. Overall probably similar, and in the ways I'm familiar with, more stringent rather than more lenient than the NEC, but in any event not "identical" much less directly referring to the NEC as such.)

I don't know man. I know from looking at the outlets and adding new reciprocals there are no grounds.
Was the house wired with flexible metal conduit? I don't know what it's historical status has been under the NEC over time, but I'm pretty sure that at some point that was considered an acceptable form of grounding. And while it's not a very "safe" ground in terms of sinking heavy current, I think it would probably do a good enough job as far as the "stray electrical signals" aspect of grounding electronics equipment is concerned if you just installed a grounded/three-prong outlet for your computer, wiring the ground to the box (... (Oh, and just for the record, technically that might not be legal...)
 
Last edited:

NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
154
106
Bear in mind that the NEC per se isn't "law", and not all jurisdictions have given it and its myriad revisions the force of law at the same time, or indeed, in some places at all. (I'm not sure what the deal is here in NYC currently, for example, but at least until fairly recently, we had our own electrical code. Overall probably similar, and in the ways I'm familiar with, more stringent rather than more lenient than the NEC, but in any event not "identical" much less directly referring to the NEC as such.)

Wanted to add to this and say that electricians back then, at least the more established old timers, saw grounds as useless. Cant tell you how many many houses I have seen with newer romex style wiring but the ground wire has been either snipped or just never connected to the switch/outlet etc... It took a while for grounding to become accepted.
 

Mike64

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2011
2,108
101
91
No. It's actually aluminum wiring. Some of it is copper.
The conduit isn't' "the wire", nor is it made "pre-strung", so to speak. It's just a flexible metal "sheath" through which wires or a cable are run inside the walls, which happens to be metal, so can be used as a ground, even if it can't safely withstand the full current the circuit in question can carry for long. As a functional matter, though not necessarily a legal/code one, there's no reason it wouldn't be used with aluminum wire as well as copper. And you also wouldn't necessarily see it when doing simple things like replacing outlets or switches inside the boxes since it (usually) terminates on the outside of them (which is how it can create a "ground" at the box, even if there is no actual ground wire.) On the other hand, since the aluminum wire was presumably used to cut costs, that would tend to argue against the original contractor using conduit, too, unless for some reason it was actually required at the time, and I have no idea what they rules about using it (pro or con) ever were, under the NEC or any other relevant code...
 
Last edited: