"Green" Shoppers More Likely to Cheat and Steal.

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,171
18,808
146
Anyone else find this interesting?

Maybe that’s why sanctimonious stewards of the environment like Al Gore are comfortable lecturing the rest of us while living large in mega-mansions?

Are ‘Green’ Consumers Less Trustworthy?
By TOM ZELLER JR.

The Guardian newspaper picked this up recently, and it also makes an appearance in the most recent issue of Conservation magazine: people who buy green products may be, on the whole, more likely to steal and cheat when given the chance.

This claim comes by way of two researchers at the University of Toronto, who were probing a more widely known psychological phenomenon in which people who pat themselves on the back for a good deed often feel entitled to a bit of selfishness later on.

Using student volunteers, the Toronto researchers tested this notion as it relates to green consumerism. They initially quizzed the students on their impressions of people who buy eco-friendly products, and for the most part, they considered such consumers to be more “more cooperative, altruistic and ethical” than ordinary consumers, according to Conservation.

The researchers then set about testing those qualities:


In the second experiment, some students were assigned to check out an online store offering mostly green products, while other students were assigned to an online store carrying mostly conventional products. Half the students in each group were asked to rate the products in the store, and the other half were asked to purchase products.

Afterward, all the students played a seemingly unrelated money-sharing game. The students who had merely rated the green products shared more money than the students who had rated the conventional products. But students who had made purchases in the green store shared less money than those who had shopped in the conventional store.

In the third experiment, the students played a computer game that tempted them to earn money by cheating. The green consumers were more likely to cheat than the conventional purchasers, and they stole more money when asked to withdraw their winnings from envelopes on their desks.

Andy Revkin, my colleague at the Dot Earth blog, suggested that this “moral-license effect,” as the authors put it, may well have something in common with another widely discussed phenomenon known as the “single-action bias” — a term that arises often in discussions of climate change.

From the Center for Research on Environmental Decisions at Columbia University:

In response to uncertain and risky situations, humans have a tendency to focus and simplify their decision making. Individuals responding to a threat are likely to rely on one action, even when it provides only incremental protection or risk reduction and may not be the most effective option. People often take no further action, presumably because the first one succeeded in reducing their feeling of worry or vulnerability. This phenomenon is called the single-action bias.

Whether or not the single-action bias can help explain why students in the Toronto experiment behaved the way they did is an open question, though it seems certain that the study of environmental decision-making — particularly as popular agreement on the gravity of global warming wanes — will continue to be a hot area of research.

“Green products do not necessarily make for better people,” the Toronto researchers told The Guardian. They also said that while much time and treasure has been spent trying to identify green consumers, relatively little research has gone into “how green consumption fits into people’s global sense of responsibility and morality.”

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/are-green-consumers-less-trustworthy/

Add some personal commnetary to this OP so the thread doesn't get locked

Anandtech Admin
Red Dawn
 
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zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
I had a thread closed because I didn't add a personal comment. It's a dumb rule.

Wrong Forum

Anandtech Admin
Red Dawn
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,837
2,622
136
Somehow cheating in a single person video game is not of any particular significance to me. Am I an immoral person because of this?

My conclusion: another useless moronic study out of some college's pysch department designed mostly to gain someone tenure.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Anyone else find this interesting?

Are ‘Green’ Consumers Less Trustworthy?
By TOM ZELLER JR.

The Guardian newspaper picked this up recently, and it also makes an appearance in the most recent issue of Conservation magazine: people who buy green products may be, on the whole, more likely to steal and cheat when given the chance.

This claim comes by way of two researchers at the University of Toronto, who were probing a more widely known psychological phenomenon in which people who pat themselves on the back for a good deed often feel entitled to a bit of selfishness later on.

Using student volunteers, the Toronto researchers tested this notion as it relates to green consumerism. They initially quizzed the students on their impressions of people who buy eco-friendly products, and for the most part, they considered such consumers to be more “more cooperative, altruistic and ethical” than ordinary consumers, according to Conservation.

The researchers then set about testing those qualities:


In the second experiment, some students were assigned to check out an online store offering mostly green products, while other students were assigned to an online store carrying mostly conventional products. Half the students in each group were asked to rate the products in the store, and the other half were asked to purchase products.

Afterward, all the students played a seemingly unrelated money-sharing game. The students who had merely rated the green products shared more money than the students who had rated the conventional products. But students who had made purchases in the green store shared less money than those who had shopped in the conventional store.

In the third experiment, the students played a computer game that tempted them to earn money by cheating. The green consumers were more likely to cheat than the conventional purchasers, and they stole more money when asked to withdraw their winnings from envelopes on their desks.

Andy Revkin, my colleague at the Dot Earth blog, suggested that this “moral-license effect,” as the authors put it, may well have something in common with another widely discussed phenomenon known as the “single-action bias” — a term that arises often in discussions of climate change.

From the Center for Research on Environmental Decisions at Columbia University:

In response to uncertain and risky situations, humans have a tendency to focus and simplify their decision making. Individuals responding to a threat are likely to rely on one action, even when it provides only incremental protection or risk reduction and may not be the most effective option. People often take no further action, presumably because the first one succeeded in reducing their feeling of worry or vulnerability. This phenomenon is called the single-action bias.

Whether or not the single-action bias can help explain why students in the Toronto experiment behaved the way they did is an open question, though it seems certain that the study of environmental decision-making — particularly as popular agreement on the gravity of global warming wanes — will continue to be a hot area of research.

“Green products do not necessarily make for better people,” the Toronto researchers told The Guardian. They also said that while much time and treasure has been spent trying to identify green consumers, relatively little research has gone into “how green consumption fits into people’s global sense of responsibility and morality.”

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/are-green-consumers-less-trustworthy/

Add some personal commnetary to this OP so the thread doesn't get locked

Anandtech Admin
Red Dawn

I am sorry Op, I just don't see the link.

edit:Green envy, now I get it!
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Anyone else find this interesting?

Maybe that’s why sanctimonious stewards of the environment like Al Gore are comfortable lecturing the rest of us while living large in mega-mansions?

And I'm guessing it also applies to sanctimonious christians who donate to their local mega-church and are comfortable lecturing to the rest of us as well.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Im not a green consumer per se, but I play a rogue in Everquest therefore I steal.

Am I a bad person?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I look at green choices as a kind of personal choice or a way of life. Nothing wrong with trying to be green, but sometimes I think we are kidding ourselves.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,171
18,808
146
And I'm guessing it also applies to sanctimonious christians who donate to their local mega-church and are comfortable lecturing to the rest of us as well.

Absolutely. Green IS the new religion. Complete with sin, guilt, redemption, self righteousness and it's own code of morals.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I look at green choices as a kind of personal choice or a way of life. Nothing wrong with trying to be green, but sometimes I think we are kidding ourselves.

If you don't use it someone else will, simple as that. But if it makes you feel better more power to ya.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
It's ironic that everyone in this thread who would consider themselves "green" immediately attacked the article as being bad science without reading the actual research article. It seems that this is the same game the other side plays when arguing against climate change. I suppose it's easier to cry foul than think critically.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
It's ironic that everyone in this thread who would consider themselves "green" immediately attacked the article as being bad science without reading the actual research article. It seems that this is the same game the other side plays when arguing against climate change. I suppose it's easier to cry foul than think critically.
I'm not "green" for the most part. I was simply observing that the article is not science. It's not bad for what it is, but the humanities are not science and never will be, no matter how much they mimic the methodologies of science. I also wasn't objecting to the validity of the conclusions either; I'm just putting them in the appropriate category. ;)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I'm not "green" for the most part. I was simply observing that the article is not science. It's not bad for what it is, but the humanities are not science and never will be, no matter how much they mimic the methodologies of science. I also wasn't objecting to the validity of the conclusions either; I'm just putting them in the appropriate category. ;)
Psychology may still only be at the correlation stage but, given enough time, the scientific causes underlying these correlations might be understood. Maybe.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Psychology may still only be at the correlation stage but, given enough time, the scientific causes underlying these correlations might be understood. Maybe.
I don't doubt it, but we are a looooong way off. When we have a nearly complete model of every reaction inside every kind of cell, and all the interactions from molecules to appendages fully mapped out then psychology might be a proper science - mostly. In the mean time we have psychologists, sociologists, economists, and all sorts of non-scientists pretending that a couple regressions and a control group (or not) makes a study "science". It's kind of cute really.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
I am sorry Op, I just don't see the link.

edit:Green envy, now I get it!


However you want to put it to make yourself feel better, but the head dolt that is crusading the "save the planet" mantra is the one destroying it more than most. Al Gore.
Al Gore claims to care about saving the world from Global Warming and thus concots a scheme in which we are all alloted a pollution allowance and can then trade and sell them to others that don't pollute as much, in the end, it doesn't stop pollution, it just makes him money and makes greenies feel better about themselves as something happened to take the burden off of their shoulders.

If He or other greenies really cared they wouldn't be hip in their Prius's because they'd understand how truely bad Nickle mining is and how those batteries are going to affect the environment. Not to mention the production of the rest of the car. If they really cared they'd all ride used mopeds or hell even a used econo-car is better since the resouces to make it have already been used.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
It's ironic that everyone in this thread who would consider themselves "green" immediately attacked the article as being bad science without reading the actual research article. It seems that this is the same game the other side plays when arguing against climate change. I suppose it's easier to cry foul than think critically.

I've read the study itself. First of all, the study doesn't say that people who consider themselves "green" or support environmental causes in general are less ethical than people who do not. The actual study *assigned* people to either purchase green products or conventional products, then afterwards assessed the ethics of both groups. Note that the test subjects did not choose whether to purchase green products or conventional ones.

The correlation, they think, points to the notion that when one does something "ethical," in the sense of doing something to benefit the community at large, this acts as a kind or moral palliative, which then causes people to feel that they can behave unethically in other circumstances. The first point should be an obvious one - that the conclusion is not in any way limited to buying "green" products. That is merely the example used in the study. It could be any sort of behavior that people have convinced themselves is "ethical" behavior. This notion that people operate on a sort of moral "chit system" is pretty obvious. We drink diet soda then eat an entire pizza. We give a quarter to the homeless guy then embezzle money from our boss. The entire point is so hopelessly overbroad (not to mention overly obvious) and has so little do with whether "green" thinking and "green" behavior are, on the whole, beneficial to society, it is unclear why it is even a topic of discussion in this context.

So what is the real lesson of this study? That people better not do good things, or else they may have an increased chance of doing bad thing afterwards? But if people never do good things, then what happens? Oh wait.

I have a degree in pscyh and I had to learn a lot about studies that are done by pscyh researchers. I noticed the one area of pscyh that consistently produces "so what" results is social psychology, the area in which this particular study falls. I recall one study, for example, that has a researcher approaching strangers and asking for directions to some place they are purportedly trying to get to. In half the cases, the researcher steps on the person's foot "accidentally" before asking for help, and in the other, the researcher doesn't do that. Lo and behold, the people whose foot got stepped on where less likely to offer directions and help... The conclusion: that when you irritate/annoy/mild injury someone, they are less likely to be altruistic toward you. Presumably, funds were actually expended to achieve this profound bit of wisdom.

Not all psych research is that useless. Some of it can yield interesting data, but you've got to be careful about the methodology and in how you interpret whatever data you yield.

The Millgram study, for example, has been criticized on multiple grounds, one principle ground being the artificiality of the setting. Yet compare the Millgram study to this one: at least Stanely Millgram actually tricked his subjects into believing that they were inflicting real pain on real human beings. Not so here.

This entire study is a simulation that is totally transparent to its subjects. The purchasing of items is not a real purchasing of item and the subjects know it. Query how much of a moral palliative they experienced from buying simulated products with monopoly money. The money sharing was not a sharing of money. The stealing was a theft of fake digital money, not real money from real people. So what is the real conclusion here, that people who buy fake green commodities may feel that leads them to cheat in a fake simulation, that faux altruism justifies faux greed?

It's hard to say what it means, but it has nothing to do with the merits of environmentalism either as an ideology or as an actual behavior.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...unbfcO&sig=AHIEtbSz_ZrZyHnQNXsKlWlyRYV4Fc6jpA


- wolf
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
Flakey "Study". I try to Buy things from a Principled point of view(not necessarily just "Green"). In Video games I have probably stolen more Cars than entire Auto-Theft rings, shot enough Cops for fun that I probably emptied entire cities of them, turn city blocks into piles of burnt out vehicles, beat up Old Ladies, etc etc etc. How much of this have I done in Real Life? Not a single one even once.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
It's ironic that everyone in this thread who would consider themselves "green" immediately attacked the article as being bad science without reading the actual research article. It seems that this is the same game the other side plays when arguing against climate change. I suppose it's easier to cry foul than think critically.

I've started more climate change "denier" threads than anyone on these forums and I think it's a stretch. Sometimes shit's just weak.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
This is basically the same as the "liberals are smarter" or "religious people are brain damaged" threads, just total BS.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,598
6,715
126
I've read the study itself. First of all, the study doesn't say that people who consider themselves "green" or support environmental causes in general are less ethical than people who do not. The actual study *assigned* people to either purchase green products or conventional products, then afterwards assessed the ethics of both groups. Note that the test subjects did not choose whether to purchase green products or conventional ones.

The correlation, they think, points to the notion that when one does something "ethical," in the sense of doing something to benefit the community at large, this acts as a kind or moral palliative, which then causes people to feel that they can behave unethically in other circumstances. The first point should be an obvious one - that the conclusion is not in any way limited to buying "green" products. That is merely the example used in the study. It could be any sort of behavior that people have convinced themselves is "ethical" behavior. This notion that people operate on a sort of moral "chit system" is pretty obvious. We drink diet soda then eat an entire pizza. We give a quarter to the homeless guy then embezzle money from our boss. The entire point is so hopelessly overbroad (not to mention overly obvious) and has so little do with whether "green" thinking and "green" behavior are, on the whole, beneficial to society, it is unclear why it is even a topic of discussion in this context.

So what is the real lesson of this study? That people better not do good things, or else they may have an increased chance of doing bad thing afterwards? But if people never do good things, then what happens? Oh wait.

I have a degree in pscyh and I had to learn a lot about studies that are done by pscyh researchers. I noticed the one area of pscyh that consistently produces "so what" results is social psychology, the area in which this particular study falls. I recall one study, for example, that has a researcher approaching strangers and asking for directions to some place they are purportedly trying to get to. In half the cases, the researcher steps on the person's foot "accidentally" before asking for help, and in the other, the researcher doesn't do that. Lo and behold, the people whose foot got stepped on where less likely to offer directions and help... The conclusion: that when you irritate/annoy/mild injury someone, they are less likely to be altruistic toward you. Presumably, funds were actually expended to achieve this profound bit of wisdom.

Not all psych research is that useless. Some of it can yield interesting data, but you've got to be careful about the methodology and in how you interpret whatever data you yield.

The Millgram study, for example, has been criticized on multiple grounds, one principle ground being the artificiality of the setting. Yet compare the Millgram study to this one: at least Stanely Millgram actually tricked his subjects into believing that they were inflicting real pain on real human beings. Not so here.

This entire study is a simulation that is totally transparent to its subjects. The purchasing of items is not a real purchasing of item and the subjects know it. Query how much of a moral palliative they experienced from buying simulated products with monopoly money. The money sharing was not a sharing of money. The stealing was a theft of fake digital money, not real money from real people. So what is the real conclusion here, that people who buy fake green commodities may feel that leads them to cheat in a fake simulation, that faux altruism justifies faux greed?

It's hard to say what it means, but it has nothing to do with the merits of environmentalism either as an ideology or as an actual behavior.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...unbfcO&sig=AHIEtbSz_ZrZyHnQNXsKlWlyRYV4Fc6jpA


- wolf

Well well well. This guy woolfie once again pinged my radar screen. I'm going to have to invest in a Box of Moonbeam gold stars.