Greek F-16D and USAF F-15E fly by over the Acropolis

[AtenRa]

Marking the end of the INIOHOS 2016 multinational interoperability exercise hosted by the Hellenic Air Force (HAF) in April 2016, a pair of Hellenic F-16s Block 52+ adv and a pair of USAF F-15E Strike Eagles performed a fly by over Athens and the Acropolis.

Video of HAF F-16D Block 52+ ADV and USAF F-15E Fly By over Athens
https://vimeo.com/162703157

INIOHOS 2016 Participants

Hellenic Air Force (HAF)
United States Air Force (USAF)
Israeli Air Force (IAF)



USAF F-15E Strike Eagle and Israeli F-16s SUFA over the Eagean

F-15E Strike Eagle somewhere in Greece

Links


US Embassy Athens Facebook page (nice pics & videos)

U.S., international partners train at INIOHOS 16

http://alert5.com/2016/04/07/twelve-f-15es-from-raf-lakenheath-are-now-in-greece-for-iniohos-16/


http://www.airplane-pictures.net/airshow.php?p=1769


https://greekmilitaryvoice.wordpress.com/2016/04/07/άσκηση-ηνίοχος-2016/

 

[SlowSpyder]

Great pics!

 

[werepossum]

I did not know that Greece hosted military exercises with America and Israel. That's pretty cool.

 

[Greenman]

I did not know that Greece hosted military exercises with America and Israel. That's pretty cool.

I didn't know they could afford a plane.

 

[werepossum]

I didn't know they could afford a plane.

lol Not just "a" plane, a hell of a lot of planes. And they are American planes - the best kind!

With a population slightly bigger (though much more attractive lol) than New York City's, Greece maintains a hell of an air force, with about the same number of war planes and more servicemen than Canada's.

Nice to see the Cradle of Western Civilization is well-armed.

 

[alcoholbob]

The best? The F-22 is barred from export (and isn't even in production any more) and there's nothing the U.S. currently produces or exports that compares to the Dassault Rafael or the Eurofighter Typhoon. Now to be fair, these planes are newer than any U.S. aircraft designs in current production. F-16s are basically the cheapest export planes you can buy in the West, no surprise the Greeks are flying them

 

[AtenRa]

I did not know that Greece hosted military exercises with America and Israel. That's pretty cool.

Iniohos 2015 participants were also the HAF, USAF and IAF

This one is from INIOHOS 2015.

http://www.ramstein.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123450874


There was another big HAF and USAF exercise in January 2016 over Crete.
http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/news/artic...jets-in-training-with-greek-airforce-in-crete

There are also exercises with HAF/IAF and IAF/HAF the last 3-4 years

This one is from last year when HAF flue to Israel.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-hones-joint-skills-with-greek-air-force-417175/

IAF F-15C and HAF F-16D Blc 52+

Also, HAF and Egyptian Air Force (EAF) HORUS 2015 exercise took place in Egypt and then EAF flue to Greece.

Egyptian Mirage 2000 and HAF Mirage 2000-5 over the Giza Pyramids

 

[rudder]

I wonder if the U.S. Air Force filled the tanks of the Greek F-16.

 

[WackyDan]

The best? The F-22 is barred from export (and isn't even in production any more) and there's nothing the U.S. currently produces or exports that compares to the Dassault Rafael or the Eurofighter Typhoon. Now to be fair, these planes are newer than any U.S. aircraft designs in current production. F-16s are basically the cheapest export planes you can buy in the West, no surprise the Greeks are flying them

Pretty sure the Dassault Rafael or the Eurofighter Typhoon are not considered 5th generation jet fighters... So the F-22 is far more advanced and capable than these. One could argue that the F-15, the Super Hornet, and latest F-16 are pretty much on par with their euro counterparts.

If you do some digging you'll find that for the Red Flag exercises in the U.S. with the Typhoons and Rafael as well the US aggressor squadrons the F-22 was intentionally handicapped to make the exercise even fair. It is that good... We just didn't build enough of them.

 

[pauldun170]

Pretty sure the Dassault Rafael or the Eurofighter Typhoon are not considered 5th generation jet fighters... So the F-22 is far more advanced and capable than these. One could argue that the F-15, the Super Hornet, and latest F-16 are pretty much on par with their euro counterparts.

If you do some digging you'll find that for the Red Flag exercises in the U.S. with the Typhoons and Rafael as well the US aggressor squadrons the F-22 was intentionally handicapped to make the exercise even fair. It is that good... We just didn't build enough of them.

I think you need check his wording

there's nothing the U.S. currently produces or exports that compares to the Dassault Rafael or the Eurofighter Typhoon

F-22 lines are shut down.

 

[WackyDan]

I think you need check his wording


F-22 lines are shut down.

F-35 lines are not and we export it.

 

[werepossum]

F-35 lines are not and we export it.

Worth pointing out that for Great Britain, our only Level 1 partner, the F-35 is their swing role fighter/attack plane and the Typhoon remains their primary air superiority fighter. The Typhoon simply does too many things better than the F-35.

 

[AtenRa]

lol Not just "a" plane, a hell of a lot of planes. And they are American planes - the best kind!

With a population slightly bigger (though much more attractive lol) than New York City's, Greece maintains a hell of an air force, with about the same number of war planes and more servicemen than Canada's.

Nice to see the Cradle of Western Civilization is well-armed.

When you have neighbors and NATO Allies like this, its no surprise.

http://www.hri.org/MFA/foreign/bilateral/turchro.htm

Greek Air Space violations

https://www.statista.com/chart/4073/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-2244-times-in-2014/

------------------------


something else,

Here is the budge from the HAF - USAF exercise that took place in Feb 2016 using the Souda Air Base in Crete.

HAF 115 Combat Wing - Souda Air Base Crete.

HAF 340 Squadron - call sign FOX - F16 Block 52+
HAF 343 Squadron - call sign STAR - F16 Block 52+

USAF 480 Squadron - call sign Warhawks - F16 Block 50

 

[Ventanni]

Worth pointing out that for Great Britain, our only Level 1 partner, the F-35 is their swing role fighter/attack plane and the Typhoon remains their primary air superiority fighter. The Typhoon simply does too many things better than the F-35.

And at 90 million Euros, I would expect it to be competitive to the F-35.

The F-35 will have an edge on it though, and I don't say that to be a chest-beating American. The Typhoon is a beautiful and phenomenal war plane; no doubt there. The F-35 though will have the advantage of having more advanced avionics, be built in significantly higher numbers which will, inevitably, result in lower maintenance costs, has a stealth edge, and have a naval version. The F-35 is also cheaper too, but that's largely in part because we're building 2500+ of them.

For the sake of this thread and for the entire discussion though, we can't really compare the F-22 to anything else. Most countries don't really build air superiority fighters, which is what the F-22 is, and yes, it has made a joke of everything it has come up against. The F-35, F-16, Rafale, and Typhoon are all multi-role and even multi-variant fighters: Smaller, lighter, much cheaper to operate, and shorter combat radius. The more accurate comparison to the F-22 would be the Russian Su-35 and the upcoming PAK-TA, and what it intends to replace, which is the F-15E.

Also, it's the avionics package that makes a war plane. It's also the most expensive part of the war plane. If you put the F-35's avionics package in the F-16, it would make the F-16 cost nearly as much as the F-35.

 

[AtenRa]

Taking Stealth out, the Eurofighter Typhoon has almost the same capabilities as the F-22 Raptor. And Tranche 3 models with AESA will close even further the small cap. Also, both F-22 and Typhoon were designed to be Air Superiority Fighters unlike F35, which in a dog fight is worse than the F-16.

 

[Blackjack200]

Typhoons and Rafales are no match for F-22s, and my guess is that they will be no match for F-35s either. There's no shame in it, the F-35 is like 20 years newer than the Eurocanards.

Doesn't really matter though, they'll wax any Sukhoi, and that's all they need to do.

 

[cirrrocco]

the sukhoi's are now heading into red flag 2016 this year.

I think Jaguar's / Su mki's and other assorted birds.

 

[werepossum]

When you have neighbors and NATO Allies like this, its no surprise.

http://www.hri.org/MFA/foreign/bilateral/turchro.htm

Greek Air Space violations

https://www.statista.com/chart/4073/turkey-violated-greek-airspace-2244-times-in-2014/

------------------------


something else,

Here is the budge from the HAF - USAF exercise that took place in Feb 2016 using the Souda Air Base in Crete.

HAF 115 Combat Wing - Souda Air Base Crete.

HAF 340 Squadron - call sign FOX - F16 Block 52+
HAF 343 Squadron - call sign STAR - F16 Block 52+

USAF 480 Squadron - call sign Warhawks - F16 Block 50

Yep. Turkey is shaping up to be a serious problem, and Greece is Europe's front line.

And at 90 million Euros, I would expect it to be competitive to the F-35.

The F-35 will have an edge on it though, and I don't say that to be a chest-beating American. The Typhoon is a beautiful and phenomenal war plane; no doubt there. The F-35 though will have the advantage of having more advanced avionics, be built in significantly higher numbers which will, inevitably, result in lower maintenance costs, has a stealth edge, and have a naval version. The F-35 is also cheaper too, but that's largely in part because we're building 2500+ of them.

For the sake of this thread and for the entire discussion though, we can't really compare the F-22 to anything else. Most countries don't really build air superiority fighters, which is what the F-22 is, and yes, it has made a joke of everything it has come up against. The F-35, F-16, Rafale, and Typhoon are all multi-role and even multi-variant fighters: Smaller, lighter, much cheaper to operate, and shorter combat radius. The more accurate comparison to the F-22 would be the Russian Su-35 and the upcoming PAK-TA, and what it intends to replace, which is the F-15E.

Also, it's the avionics package that makes a war plane. It's also the most expensive part of the war plane. If you put the F-35's avionics package in the F-16, it would make the F-16 cost nearly as much as the F-35.

Good points. I'd add one more: the most successful plane is the one whose pilot understands the advantages and disadvantages of his aircraft and his adversary's aircraft, and makes the most of his own advantages while denying the enemy his advantages. That usually translates to time behind the stick in realistic training, although stealth obviously is somewhat of a game changer.

 

[Blackjack200]

Good points. I'd add one more: the most successful plane is the one whose pilot understands the advantages and disadvantages of his aircraft and his adversary's aircraft, and makes the most of his own advantages while denying the enemy his advantages. That usually translates to time behind the stick in realistic training, although stealth obviously is somewhat of a game changer.

I read an interesting story some time back about when the IAF first received F-15s. I don't remember why, but the aircraft were given to the younger, greener pilots, and when they faced the Israeli F-4s in simulated combat, the veteran pilots in the Phantoms were frustrated because no matter how many mistakes this kids made, the F-15's amazing performance bailed them out.

Anecdotes from Red Flag are that going up against F-22s and getting shot out of the sky by planes you can't see is demoralizing.

Not trying to say that pilots don't matter, or anything like that, but I think an F-22 or F-35 with a competent pilot is difficult to overcome.

 

[AtenRa]

The F-22 and F-35 are not completely invisible, they are visible in the IR spectrum. Typhoon's IRST sensor system could detect the F-22 at close to 40-50Km away(according to UK Typhoon pilots).

Also the F-35 is not designed for air superiority, it has the worst thrust-to-weight and wing load ratio. Secondly the F-35 can only carry 2x AMMRAM's inside, so it is also lacking the fire power and its dogfight capabilities are the worst of its class. The f-35 was designed to provide the first critical air-to-ground strikes using its stealth (design and materials). It was never meant to come close and engage other air superiority aircrafts.

 

[Blackjack200]

The F-22 and F-35 are not completely invisible, they are visible in the IR spectrum. Typhoon's IRST sensor system could detect the F-22 at close to 40-50Km away(according to UK Typhoon pilots).

Also the F-35 is not designed for air superiority, it has the worst thrust-to-weight and wing load ratio. Secondly the F-35 can only carry 2x AMMRAM's inside, so it is also lacking the fire power and its dogfight capabilities are the worst of its class. The f-35 was designed to provide the first critical air-to-ground strikes using its stealth (design and materials). It was never meant to come close and engage other air superiority aircrafts.

The pilot parachutes gracefully toward the smoking hole in the ground that used to be his jet. He shakes his fist at the gray blur streaking past him. "You're not completely invisible, you know!"

1. Long range IRST is like looking at the sky through a soda straw. Yes, you can detect an aircraft at 50 km if you know exactly where to look.

2. The F-35 is designed to be a multi-purpose tactical aircraft. Capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground engagement.

3. T/W ratio is greater than parity and perfectly sufficient for combat maneuvering. Wing loading is not a measure of turning ability. For example, the F-16 has a higher wing loading than the F-4.

4. You're simply wrong about the AA loadout. Current version can carry 4 AMRAAMs internally, Block 5 will up that to six.

We'll see what happens at Red Flag and other excercises. I'm predicting that it will dominate in AA combat.

 

[werepossum]

I read an interesting story some time back about when the IAF first received F-15s. I don't remember why, but the aircraft were given to the younger, greener pilots, and when they faced the Israeli F-4s in simulated combat, the veteran pilots in the Phantoms were frustrated because no matter how many mistakes this kids made, the F-15's amazing performance bailed them out.

Anecdotes from Red Flag are that going up against F-22s and getting shot out of the sky by planes you can't see is demoralizing.

Not trying to say that pilots don't matter, or anything like that, but I think an F-22 or F-35 with a competent pilot is difficult to overcome.

Probably true, although the F-4 is a particularly horrendous dogfighter. A lot will depend on number of aircraft. One on one or two on two, the engagement may well be over before the F-22's opponent knows it is anywhere around. With the F-35, jury's still out. We'll have to see whether those massive Russian AD radars can pick it up at useful distances. But in a real scrum, the F-35 is going to be at a serious disadvantage compared to same-gen air superiority or swing fighters.

 

[Harabec]

Hijacking for the hell of it.
I live near Tel-Nof where F4's used to operate until they were retired in 2004. Seeing them on approach to land was really cool because they look like NASA's space shuttle from the front...and they were incredibly loud.
Currently Tel-Nof hosts F-15's, CH-53's and UH-60's.
Nearly all planes landing in Tel-Nof start their final U-turn directly above us and you can hear the buzzing of the landing gear being deployed.
Can't wait for the F-35's to fly over us in a few months.

 

[Ventanni]

Taking Stealth out, the Eurofighter Typhoon has almost the same capabilities as the F-22 Raptor. And Tranche 3 models with AESA will close even further the small cap. Also, both F-22 and Typhoon were designed to be Air Superiority Fighters unlike F35, which in a dog fight is worse than the F-16.

The F-35's dogfighting capability is not worse than the F-16. Some pilots made that statement in the very early early stages of its design for various reasons such as either they were flying the plane green versus having 30 years of training and experience behind flying the F-16, various parts of the F-35 hadn't been finalized yet, or lastly, because it was a good way to get press. But now that thousands of flight hours are being put into the F-35, it's actually very much not the case. The F-16 does have the slight edge in raw maneuverability (that's what it was designed for), but the F-35 has superior acceleration and deceleration characteristics, as well as vastly superior targeting. In the thoughts of a pilot describing it, once you try and lock on with the F-35, it pretty much sticks. That's not the case with the F-16.

There's also that factor of the F-35 being able to detect and lock onto enemy warplanes long before they even see it. Long story short, I think people are going to be quite surprised with the F-35's ability to dog fight.

Oh! And let's be honest with ourselves here also, Lockheed Martin also produces the F-16. Do you think they're going to design the F-35 with worse capabilities than its predecessor? What a silly thought.

 

[Blackjack200]

The F-35's dogfighting capability is not worse than the F-16. Some pilots made that statement in the very early early stages of its design for various reasons such as either they were flying the plane green versus having 30 years of training and experience behind flying the F-16, various parts of the F-35 hadn't been finalized yet, or lastly, because it was a good way to get press. But now that thousands of flight hours are being put into the F-35, it's actually very much not the case. The F-16 does have the slight edge in raw maneuverability (that's what it was designed for), but the F-35 has superior acceleration and deceleration characteristics, as well as vastly superior targeting. In the thoughts of a pilot describing it, once you try and lock on with the F-35, it pretty much sticks. That's not the case with the F-16.

There's also that factor of the F-35 being able to detect and lock onto enemy warplanes long before they even see it. Long story short, I think people are going to be quite surprised with the F-35's ability to dog fight.

Oh! And let's be honest with ourselves here also, Lockheed Martin also produces the F-16. Do you think they're going to design the F-35 with worse capabilities than its predecessor? What a silly thought.

Right on the money. Raw maneuverability is also not the critical factor it once was. The F-15's 104-0 record has much more to do with the look-down shoot-down APG-63, AWACS support, and superior pilot training than 9g turns.

Also, the aces of yesteryear didn't rack up their kills in turning fights, they would find an advantageous position (usually with an altitude advantage) and pounce on unsuspecting aircraft for a quick kill and then climb back up again. The sensor package of the F-35 is designed to replicate that advantage. A pilot that can see his adversary first has a huge advantage.

Finally, an F-35 that does find itself in a turning fight will have the advantage of the most advanced HOBS/LOAL missile system in the world, the AIM-9x with the helmet mounted sight.