Discussion Greatest Crime in American History

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Do you think this is the greatest crime in the history of our country?

  • I don't care.. I'm a Trumper, and I want Trumpland

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
136
OP should probably have specified crimes committed by a POTUS or at least by prominent American politicians. It's apples to oranges to compare the political corruption of a POTUS with a massive physical terrorist attack.

Assuming we are confining this to say, crimes committed by prominent, American politicians with a national profile, I can only answer based on the hypothetical assumption that what I believe likely happened did in fact happen. That Trump and his campaign formed an agreement with the Kremlin to trade the repeal/easing of sanctions for help winning the election, which help included breaking into computer systems and stealing data, not just any old felony but espionage. If all that happened, then yes, it's the worst ever. Makes Watergate look like child's play by comparison.

Something else to consider is that this alleged conspiracy is not Trump's only crime, not even close. A better question is, does any past POTUS even approach this total level of corruption?
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,378
7,443
136
Can't find the whole video on their site but it was Nicolle Wallace's show yesterday.

That's the same speculation presented in the OP. It does not lay out who did what, when, and by what evidence.
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
126
speaking for myself, I only call the proud Nazis what they are, and it is only ever in response to unapologetic endorsement of actual Nazism. For members on this forum, I can only think of 2, maybe 3 such people off the top of my head. Nazis in the news, however, well there are clearly many more of them out there.

Nazi is easier to type than "white supremacist asshole who wants to deport brown and control black". White supremacists would prefer we use the term "white nationalist". Nope.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I don't think that Trump has any super powers, but I know that if Trump gave an order, even a obviously illegal one like arrest congress, and gave even the most obviously untrue excuse on why, some would believe him and follow it.
They would be immediately shot if they resist and if they engage in an insurrection in the military they may serve life in prison or execution. Whoever you have in mind the chances are they will die an unpleasant death. No professional would follow that order if they were sane and any civilian would be shot as a terrorist as they tried.

For all Trump may be, dead might be the result for many including himself if he commits treason as you say.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,332
7,792
136
I'm a big historical nerd but I've never read Washington's farewell address. I think I will now.

The most relevant part of the address:
I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.
 
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Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
Considering that the enemy successfully planted so far at least one admitted agent in the White House, one operating in the highest levels of the NRA, and has now been shown to have been grooming Trump for the Presidency for a very long time I would call this "war" not "crime". And he is not the only one. 7 GOP senators flew to Russia this year. Stayed for the 4th! If Reagan was alive he would have shot their freakin plane down. YUGE conspiracy yet to be unraveled.

gdhntl8ioqa11.jpg


Hopefully the US will begin fighting back once we regain control of our government.

Lol she's wearing cowboy boots
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,716
47,399
136
I don't think this will lead to more deaths than 9/11 but it will have a more profound impact on the United States as a whole than 9/11 did because it undermines our very system of government. Even worse, while I suspect both sides will agree that this scandal undermines the US government liberals will think so because the president criminally conspired with a hostile foreign power to gain the presidency and conservatives will think it's a coup by liberals because they are no longer tethered to reality.

Assuming the facts continue as they are the conservative position will be utterly insane but it will not stop them from holding it and lord only knows what they will do in that case. I think regardless we are in for a dark two years.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
136
Well... in that context we'd still be comparing it to the genocide of our natives?

Oh, that and African slavery were the worst atrocities we as a country ever committed. But in their day, these were not "crimes" in the legal sense. And they were not corruption. You could just as easily add the internment of the Japanese and the entire Vietnam War, but again, technically these were not crimes but rather bad/evil policies.

Incidentally, most of the genocide you refer to happened long before we were a country, in the early to middle 17th century, when our ancestors killed off over half the native American population by spreading disease.

These historical atrocities seem like apples to oranges comparisons with political corruption to me.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,716
47,399
136
OP should probably have specified crimes committed by a POTUS or at least by prominent American politicians. It's apples to oranges to compare the political corruption of a POTUS with a massive physical terrorist attack.

Assuming we are confining this to say, crimes committed by prominent, American politicians with a national profile, I can only answer based on the hypothetical assumption that what I believe likely happened did in fact happen. That Trump and his campaign formed an agreement with the Kremlin to trade the repeal/easing of sanctions for help winning the election, which help included breaking into computer systems and stealing data, not just any old felony but espionage. If all that happened, then yes, it's the worst ever. Makes Watergate look like child's play by comparison.

Something else to consider is that this alleged conspiracy is not Trump's only crime, not even close. A better question is, does any past POTUS even approach this total level of corruption?

Also important to note that if what you believe is accurate that means the commander in chief of the world’s most powerful military and the head of the US nuclear arsenal is vulnerable to blackmail by our chief geopolitical adversary.

Not just regular embarrassing blackmail either like the pee tape, this would be ‘send you to prison or be executed’ type blackmail.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,970
7,889
136
Don't know how you'd make such a judgement. Does a crime have to have actually have led to a conviction? Because in many crimes the state or the court system are complicit in them.

Not sure it compares to the numerous massacres, and near-genocide, of American Indians. Or US actions in the Phillipines. Or, of course, slavery. I mean, really there's such a lot to choose from. I suppose you also have to decide whether or not to scale for increasing population. Crimes get bigger the more people you have, so should it be relative to the population level or not?

Besides, Washington was a seditionary himself! (is it too late to 'lock him up'?) And you all colluded with a foreign power (the French - the French of all people! Why did you have to pick the French?) to undermine the legitimate authority of the monarch.

So you need to narrow the framing of the question.

If he ends up being arrested and taken out of the Whitehouse in handcuffs it would be the most entertaining political scandal ever, I'm sure. But I don't see that happening. I'm not sure I see anything happening, unfortunately.
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,705
136
is capital punishment still on the table for treason? and would trump and company be subjected to it.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,599
4,050
136
Assuming everything plays out as the evidence is suggesting then yeah. Without a doubt.

I submit we do a firing squad on live TV for all the Trump Traitors for the world to see.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Slavery, native American genocide, succession of the Confederacy, Japanese internment.... Don't think this exceeds those crimes against humanity.

However this may be the greatest political scandal, betrayal and treachery by a single individual in the quest for political power in this nation's history.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,330
1,203
126
By Steve Schmidt:

"We are at this time right now.. where there is enough information to sit and wonder, might this be the greatest crime in American History?

The subversion of an American Election by a foreign power colluding with and in conspiracy with the President's campaign.

Its extraordinary to consider.

This is what George Washington warned the country about in his farewell address - The father of the country, when it was time for him to say goodbye.. this is what he warned about!

And its extraordinary to consider in this moment in time as we get ready to see a new congress come in and begin its oversight of this administration as all of the details are filled in to ponder what may have happened here.

It is an extraordinary moment that is coming in the history of our constitutional republic."





I'm a big historical nerd but I've never read Washington's farewell address. I think I will now.

Yes it was but we were lucky that Clinton didn't get elected or we would be a direct puppet of Putin.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,650
2,385
126
9/11 was peanuts compared to Pearl Harbor. Both were acts of war anyway, I don't think acts of war should be lumped into the crimes category.

Personally I would consider both the mistreatment and starvation of US prisoners in southern prisons during the Civil War or the Indian Wars (with techniques such as smallpox infected blankets) to be worst crimes-but the election of Trump and it's after effects in terms of damage to this country remain to be quantified.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
I don't think this will lead to more deaths than 9/11 but it will have a more profound impact on the United States as a whole than 9/11 did because it undermines our very system of government. Even worse, while I suspect both sides will agree that this scandal undermines the US government liberals will think so because the president criminally conspired with a hostile foreign power to gain the presidency and conservatives will think it's a coup by liberals because they are no longer tethered to reality.

Assuming the facts continue as they are the conservative position will be utterly insane but it will not stop them from holding it and lord only knows what they will do in that case. I think regardless we are in for a dark two years.

I think the negative impact of this scandal will only have been magnified because of the impact from 9/11.

9/11, more specifically the reactions to it and the aftermath, led to a rise of distrust in the government. The reinforcement of right vs left that started about a decade before which was then strengthened through the "with us or against us" rhetoric and the shunning of anyone speaking out against the Iraq war at the time. Which led to the great partisan divide we have now which trump has been able to take advantage of.

Had bush's reaction to 9/11 not gone the way it did (especially the lying), I don't think we'd have a president trump and our faith in our government institutions wouldn't be as week as they are now.

What trump has done is to expose our political systems weaknesses and weakened our institutions.

The biggest weakness that has been exposed, in my opinion, is that the electoral college is a failure.
 
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