Great: We are on our way to become the 2nd Iran.

[Turkish]

The Islamist party is leading the votes with 48%

Maybe its time for nonreligious folks like me in Turkey to think about our future here. They have been passing Islamic reforms for the past 4.5 years and they will continue for another 4.5 years...

 

[jpeyton]

Interesting how hard-liners have returned to power in the Middle East after Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq. Ahmadinejad rose to power in 2005, and how Turkey is moving in a similar direction in 2007.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Turkish
The Islamist party is leading the votes with 48%

Maybe its time for nonreligious folks like me in Turkey to think about our future here. They have been passing Islamic reforms for the past 4.5 years and they will continue for another 4.5 years...

I am sorry if your country is lost. If you feel the need to escape your plight, the western world could always use more good men, especially those who have experience in the realities of the growing Islamic movement. Too many people, I fear, deny the very existence of a problem and through that denial give the movement aid and comfort.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Interesting how hard-liners have returned to power in the Middle East after Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq. Ahmadinejad rose to power in 2005, and how Turkey is moving in a similar direction in 2007.

In war the lines are always drawn.

 

[Stunt]

So the governing party was re-elected...I fail to see how you are worse off than you currently are?

Wikipedia describes the governing party as "The Justice and Development Party is a right-wing, conservative Turkish political party. It is often qualified as a "moderate Muslim" party, emulating Christian Democrats parties."

"The government has greatly increased Turkish chances of being given a date for membership of the European Union, notably by giving strong support to the ultimately doomed Annan Plan aimed at resolving the Cyprus conflict. It has undertaken significant structural reforms and its policy achievements have seen rapid growth and an end to Turkey's three decade long period of hyperinflation?inflation had fallen to 8.8% by June 2004. Influential business publications, the Economist and the Financial Times, consider the AK Party's government the most successful in Turkey in decades."

Sounds like they are doing a good job...
More pointless moderate right wing bashing...:roll:

 

[Lemon law]

Far be it from me to question a Turkish native like the OP on this thread, but I think Turkish has vastly understated the threat the election of an Islamist government in Turkey could be. The Turkish military could well take over the civilian government to retain secular control of Turkey. In this respect, Turkey and the tradition of Attaturk is almost unique in the world.---and somewhat difficult for someone ignorant of Turkish history to understand.---but Turkey has a long and recent tradition of separating Church from State unlike much of the other States in the mid-east---and a vast number in Turkey will resort to violence if an Islamic party starts to threaten secular control.---or to put it another way--ceases to respect secular control and open advocates doing away with that tradition.

That and some 200,000 troops massed at the Kurdish border to deter PPK terrorist incursions into Turkey makes the whole situation very volatile---in short---just one incident could cascade into a shooting war or a major political crisis. And if Turkey melts down---its going to have major impacts on not just Iraq--but all the other countries in the region.

 

[DivideBYZero]

This seems odd seeing as they are the ruling party and measures such as banning women wearing headscarves within universities or if you hold any government post.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Interesting how hard-liners have returned to power in the Middle East after Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq. Ahmadinejad rose to power in 2005, and how Turkey is moving in a similar direction in 2007.

LMAO @ you.

 

[Oric]

Turkey is moving in the right direction. Comparing the power of fundamental christians in US Administration, we are no where as near

 

[Oric]

People made precisely the correct decisions

AKP holds a comfortable majority but has to negotiate with other parties for constitutional changes

Ethnic Kurds have their representatives in the parliament

The bad performing CHP (Main opposition) has lost many seats

 

[Lemon law]

We still do not know how this is going to pan out---the ruling party now controls something like
350 out of 550 seats in parliament---and now issues assurance that it won't use its super majority to bring back Islamic rule and respect the secular traditions of Turkey.

But just like our religious right---the temptation to exploit has a nasty habit of creeping in despite assurances to the contrary. And once they have the political capital---they may be tempted to engage in various brainfarts that go over like gangbusters within their leadership,
but really really alienates everyone else---and thereby manage to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

But it may work out---if they just can keep from being too greedy---or too arrogant.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: Oric
Turkey is moving in the right direction. Comparing the power of fundamental christians in US Administration, we are no where as near

What fundamental christians? Bush? hahaha... I'm sorry to say but those who control the puppet strings on Bush are not fundamental christian.

 

[Stunt]

Turkey's ruling party promises to uphold secular principles
Turkey's currency and stock market rally on election results

Sounds like the OP is a little off his rocker.

 

[Lemon law]

As Stunt points out--Sounds like the OP is a little off his rocker.

But we still must acknowledge the possibility that he is warning of a real danger that could come to pass.---only time will tell---and I for one think he has every right to give his opinion and share his take on matters.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Turkish
The Islamist party is leading the votes with 48%

Maybe its time for nonreligious folks like me in Turkey to think about our future here. They have been passing Islamic reforms for the past 4.5 years and they will continue for another 4.5 years...

What Islamic reforms have they been passing for the past 4.5 years that you consider to be detrimental to Turkey's secular state?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Cut and run by the OP and Peyton.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This seems odd seeing as they are the ruling party and measures such as banning women wearing headscarves within universities or if you hold any government post.

Actually I think they tried to do away with that to no avail - its a measure I'd agree with. Perhaps Turkish could provide some insight for us on that

but aside from that here is some latesat news:

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070715-062558-2689rp

Turkey PM stops short at promising headscarf ban end
AFP

July 15, 2007


SCARFED SUPPORTERS: Women listen to Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan during a rally July 14, 2007 by his ruling AK Party, campaigning for the upcoming early parliamentary elections in Ankara.
(REUTERS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANKARA -- Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said Turkey still needed time to achieve a compromise that would lead to the lifting of a much-disputed headscarf ban in universities, Anatolia news agency reported Sunday.

Erdogan, whose wife and two daughters cover their heads, is opposed to the ban, but his government has failed to abolish it thanks to a wary secularist establishment, which sees the Islamic cover as a symbol of defiance of the mainly Muslim nation's secular order.

Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP), widely expected to again emerge first from legislative elections next Sunday, has omitted the issue from its election manifesto.

"We wish that all [women] can go freely to university, regardless of whether they cover their heads or not," Anatolia quoted Erdogan as saying overnight.

He argued that Turkish society was in favor of lifting the ban "but there is no compromise between state institutions."

The right of university students to wear the headscarf should be regarded not as a political issue, but as part of personal freedoms, he said.

The secularist establishment, which includes the army, the judiciary, and the academic elite, is widely mistrustful of the AKP because of its roots in a now-banned Islamist party.

The headscarf was at the heart of a political crisis in April that blocked the AKP-dominated parliament's election of foreign minister Abdullah Gul as president and prompted the July 22 legislative elections.

Gul's wife also wears the headscarf, and many secularist Turks raised objections to the prospect of a veiled first lady. my comment - you gotta be kidding me...

AKP arguments that the headscarf ban violated freedom of conscience and the right to education suffered a blow in 2005, when the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the ban was not a violation and could be necessary to protect Turkey's secular order against extremist movements.

Public servants are also barred from wearing the scarf in Turkey.

The AKP, which came to power in 2002, rejects accusations that it has a secret Islamist agenda.

The party has disowned its Islamist roots, pledged commitment to secularism, and carried out democracy reforms that ensured the start of Turkey's membership talks with the European Union in 2005.

Interesting stuff...lets hope that ban is lifted as it does try to deny the right of education to those who want to seek it and still wear a headscarf.

edit:

yes don't worry I was careful of the source (ie: moonie camp!) but the article seemd reasonable enough to be true

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
This seems odd seeing as they are the ruling party and measures such as banning women wearing headscarves within universities or if you hold any government post.

Actually I think they tried to do away with that to no avail - its a measure I'd agree with. Perhaps Turkish could provide some insight for us on that

but aside from that here is some latesat news:

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070715-062558-2689rp

Turkey PM stops short at promising headscarf ban end
AFP

July 15, 2007


SCARFED SUPPORTERS: Women listen to Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan during a rally July 14, 2007 by his ruling AK Party, campaigning for the upcoming early parliamentary elections in Ankara.
(REUTERS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANKARA -- Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said Turkey still needed time to achieve a compromise that would lead to the lifting of a much-disputed headscarf ban in universities, Anatolia news agency reported Sunday.

Erdogan, whose wife and two daughters cover their heads, is opposed to the ban, but his government has failed to abolish it thanks to a wary secularist establishment, which sees the Islamic cover as a symbol of defiance of the mainly Muslim nation's secular order.

Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP), widely expected to again emerge first from legislative elections next Sunday, has omitted the issue from its election manifesto.

"We wish that all [women] can go freely to university, regardless of whether they cover their heads or not," Anatolia quoted Erdogan as saying overnight.

He argued that Turkish society was in favor of lifting the ban "but there is no compromise between state institutions."

The right of university students to wear the headscarf should be regarded not as a political issue, but as part of personal freedoms, he said.

The secularist establishment, which includes the army, the judiciary, and the academic elite, is widely mistrustful of the AKP because of its roots in a now-banned Islamist party.

The headscarf was at the heart of a political crisis in April that blocked the AKP-dominated parliament's election of foreign minister Abdullah Gul as president and prompted the July 22 legislative elections.

Gul's wife also wears the headscarf, and many secularist Turks raised objections to the prospect of a veiled first lady. my comment - you gotta be kidding me...

AKP arguments that the headscarf ban violated freedom of conscience and the right to education suffered a blow in 2005, when the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the ban was not a violation and could be necessary to protect Turkey's secular order against extremist movements.

Public servants are also barred from wearing the scarf in Turkey.

The AKP, which came to power in 2002, rejects accusations that it has a secret Islamist agenda.

The party has disowned its Islamist roots, pledged commitment to secularism, and carried out democracy reforms that ensured the start of Turkey's membership talks with the European Union in 2005.

Interesting stuff...lets hope that ban is lifted as it does try to deny the right of education to those who want to seek it and still wear a headscarf.

edit:

yes don't worry I was careful of the source (ie: moonie camp!) but the article seemd reasonable enough to be true

I do understand why some of you in the West may think I am exaggerating (sp?) things. Well, here are some things that happened in the past 4.5 years:

1. Turkey now has headscarve hotels. Only women with headscarves can stay there. Headscarved women can stay in any hotel they want, but you cannot stay in a headscarve hotel if you don't wear one.

2. Alcohol tax has incread so much that it is the highest in OEDC. Perhaps it has something to do with Islam being against alcohol?

3. A religious person can go to any restaurant and prefer not to drink. Yet a person who enjoys drinking cannot go to one of the religious restaurants and ask for a drink.

4. Religious folks are forming their own neighbourhoods. They can walk safely in modern neighbourhoods but god forbid a woman enter their neighbourhood without a headscarve. She'd be lynched.

5. Speaker of the Parliment: We'll choose an Islamist president.

6. Minister of the State: Of course we'll destroy the secular system.

7. Prime Minister: Secularism and Islam cannot exist together.

8. Prime Minister: Democracy is not a goal, it's a tool.

Now some non-islamic stuff they have done:

9. Carry trade: Our economy looks great on graphs but is extremely volatile. We depend on high interest rates.

10. AKP's increasing wealth in 4.5 years. The prime minister's son was studying on a scholorship 3 years ago, he bought a $4 million ship and a $1 million home this year.

11. Stopping bus services when opposition parties rally, increasing number of buses when they rally.

12. Highest budget deficit in TUrkey's history. Each TUrkish kid born in 2002 had $3K national debt attached. That number is close to $5.7K now.

13. More than half the members of AKP are on trial but since they are MPs, they cannot be punished.

14. Not allowing Alevis (some arm of Islam) to have their praying homes (Cemevi). Alevis are the most modern form of Islam and AKP tries to push them to use mosques.

I can write hundres of pages but I don't think I will because its very hard to change the minds of people thousands of miles away.

AKP won a lot of votes this time because there are more than 20 million poor people in Turkey and AKP sent "Help packages" to a lot of them from the government budget (not party budget). They gave free coal and wood to them in the middle of the summer, and apparently they promised to give money and other gifts to all voters who can prove that they voted for the AKP using their cell phone cameras

Before I go off, here are some stats for all of you to consider and see why I am against a religious party cause it will only get worse.

----

Number of public officers in the Ministry of Religion (which only represents Islam, no other): 87,000

Number of mosques: 77,000. One mosque for every 345 people. 1140 more mosques are in construction at the moment.

Number of schools: 67,000

Number of teachers that the ministry of education needs to hire: 200,000.

Number of hospitals: 1220 One hospital for every 60,000 people..

Number of doctors: 77,344. One doctor for every 870 people.

Capacity for number of patients in hospitals: 189,000. Capacity for number of people that can pray in mosques at any given moment: 26,000,000.

Now for comparison, lets look at Germany.

70,000 hospitals, only 8,000 churches.

In France: 60,000 hospitals, 9,000 churches.

Number of libraries in Germany: 11,000.
Number of libraries in France: 4,000.
Number of libraries in Turkey: 1435 (what's sad is even this number is more than all the libraries combined in Middle East excluding Israel.)

Budgets of some ministries in Turkey:

Ministry of Infrastructure: 677 Million YTL.
Ministry of Transportatioen: 687 Milllion YTL.
Ministry of Industry and Trade: 280 Million YTL.
Ministry of Energy: 249 Million YTL.
Ministry of Tourism: 632 Million YTL.
Ministry of Religion (which I must repeat only represents Muslims): 1,200 Million YTL.

Cheers.

 

[Aimster]

take a deep breath. calm down. you relaxed?

Turkey is nowhere near as being close to Iran.

The AK party has no intentions of turning Turkey into an Islamic State.

Plus your military will bitch slap all the religious nuts if they decided to act religious.

The only thing that will come out of this is the headscarf ban will probably be lifted. Big whoop.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: Turkish

I do understand why some of you in the West may think I am exaggerating (sp?) things.

Cheers.

I rather trust someone living in Turkey explaining what's going on in his country than loud mouth Americans telling him what is good/bad for his countries (again).

 

[Nebor]

Don't worry, some of us Americans understand the fundamentals of Islam. No matter how much we accomodate them, make excuses for their actions, and accept them in our society, they will not do the same for us. Their way is the only way. They want world domination under an Islamic theocracy. They will use whatever power or office they can, and do whatever they can to achieve their goals.

Every time someone springs to their aid, saying we should be tolerant, they laugh, knowing that our own people are bringing the Islamofascists to power.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Turkish

I do understand why some of you in the West may think I am exaggerating (sp?) things.

Cheers.

The same type of people who think you are exaggerating go absolutely livid over things like Jesus Camp, thinking they are going to take away all our freedoms and turn America into an Iran.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Don't worry, some of us Americans understand the fundamentals of Islam. No matter how much we accomodate them, make excuses for their actions, and accept them in our society, they will not do the same for us. Their way is the only way. They want world domination under an Islamic theocracy. They will use whatever power or office they can, and do whatever they can to achieve their goals.

Every time someone springs to their aid, saying we should be tolerant, they laugh, knowing that our own people are bringing the Islamofascists to power.

Since this thread is about Turkey,

You should know Turkey is flying extensive air campaigns for NATO forces right now. Their pilots are heavily trained/experienced just as much as Israeli pilots as a result of their assistance to NATO forces in the air.

Thank Turkey for their assistance to the West.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Nebor
Don't worry, some of us Americans understand the fundamentals of Islam. No matter how much we accomodate them, make excuses for their actions, and accept them in our society, they will not do the same for us. Their way is the only way. They want world domination under an Islamic theocracy. They will use whatever power or office they can, and do whatever they can to achieve their goals.

Every time someone springs to their aid, saying we should be tolerant, they laugh, knowing that our own people are bringing the Islamofascists to power.

Since this thread is about Turkey,

You should know Turkey is flying extensive air campaigns for NATO forces right now. Their pilots are heavily trained/experienced just as much as Israeli pilots as a result of their assistance to NATO forces in the air.

Thank Turkey for their assistance to the West.

I never said otherwise. I was speaking about the muslims in the country, not the secularists. The Turkish government has been an excellent ally in the war on terror.

 

[Aimster]

Everyone inside Turkey is a Muslim except for maybe .1-.3% of the population.

Turkey is ruled by Muslims as it has been for yearsss