Grammar Question: When you're ending a sentence with a quote...

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chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
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Sentence structure is a simple concept to understand if computer programming principles are applied to it. The comparison of programming language syntax and concepts with the written English language is valid since the study of linguistics applies to both computer languages and human languages equally, as any student of computer science or philosophy understands.

The techniques of modularization and scope may be used to understand this concept of sentence structure. Consider a quotation as a module or object that is dropped into a sentence.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something, then said something else.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>, then said <insert second quote>.


The sentence structure needs to remain with the sentence. The outer sentence structure does not belong within a quote.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence(inner sentence).)


Only if the quote is a whole sentence, paragraph, or object is punctuation placed within the quote. As Colt45 mentioned earlier:

Colt45 said:
"A full sentence by itself goes inside."

She asked "WTF are you doing?". <- two puncts, cause they're different.

He said "A full quoted sentence in another sentence gets it outside, if they have the same punctuation".
not .".

He then said "If they have different punctuation, you can have both!".

Something like that, IIRC. BrE.
Click to expand...




=================================================
This topic brings me to my second pet peeve regarding sentence structure; the method used to separate three distinct objects in a sentence by using commas.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence (Object1), (Object2), and (Object3).)


The method of dropping the second comma is only correct if (Object2) and (Object3) are combined into a single object.

(Sentence (Object1), ((Object2) and (Object3)).)




=================================================
Americans speak and write English in a lazy manner. The placement of sentence structure within quotes and dropping the second comma are the result of laziness becoming standard in American English. This result of laziness creates ambiguity within our language that requires memorization instead of an understanding of logical sentence construction.

Personally, I discount reasoning that is declared in a lazy manner. If a person is going to make the effort to state their opinion or reasoning, then it is best not to be lazy about it. Honestly, if someone does not care enough about their reasoning to state it correctly, then I will not care enough about their reasoning to consider it.
 
Last edited:
Y

yankeesfan

Diamond Member
Aug 6, 2004
5,922
1
71
chusteczka said:
Sentence structure is a simple concept to understand if computer programming principles are applied to it. The comparison of programming language syntax and concepts with the written English language is valid since the study of linguistics applies to both computer languages and human languages equally, as any student of computer science or philosophy understands.

The techniques of modularization and scope may be used to understand this concept of sentence structure. Consider a quotation as a module or object that is dropped into a sentence.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something, then said something else.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>, then said <insert second quote>.


The sentence structure needs to remain with the sentence. The outer sentence structure does not belong within a quote.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence(inner sentence).)


Only if the quote is a whole sentence, paragraph, or object is puncuation placed within the quote. As Colt45 mentioned earlier:






=====================================================
This topic brings me to my second pet peeve regarding sentence structure; the method used to separate three distinct objects in a sentence by using commas.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence (Object1), (Object2), and (Object3).)


The method of dropping the second comma is only correct if (Object2) and (Object3) are combined into a single object.

(Sentence (Object1), ((Object2) and (Object3)).)




=====================================================
Americans speak and write English in a lazy manner. The placement of sentence structure within quotes and dropping the second comma are the result of laziness becoming standard in American English. This result of laziness is what creates ambiguity within our language that requires memorization instead of an understanding of logical sentence construction.

Personally, I discount reasoning that is declared in a lazy manner. If a person is going to make the effort to state their opinion or reasoning, then it is best not to be lazy about it. Honestly, if someone does not care enough about their reasoning to state it correctly, then I will not care enough about their reasoning to consider it.
Click to expand...

Nicely stated.
 
BeauJangles

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
chusteczka said:
Sentence structure is a simple concept to understand if computer programming principles are applied to it. The comparison of programming language syntax and concepts with the written English language is valid since the study of linguistics applies to both computer languages and human languages equally, as any student of computer science or philosophy understands.

The techniques of modularization and scope may be used to understand this concept of sentence structure. Consider a quotation as a module or object that is dropped into a sentence.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>.

He looked me straight in the eye as he said something, then said something else.
He looked me straight in the eye as he said <insert quote>, then said <insert second quote>.


The sentence structure needs to remain with the sentence. The outer sentence structure does not belong within a quote.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence(inner sentence).)


Only if the quote is a whole sentence, paragraph, or object is punctuation placed within the quote. As Colt45 mentioned earlier:






=================================================
This topic brings me to my second pet peeve regarding sentence structure; the method used to separate three distinct objects in a sentence by using commas.

(Sentence.)
(Sentence (Object1), (Object2), and (Object3).)


The method of dropping the second comma is only correct if (Object2) and (Object3) are combined into a single object.

(Sentence (Object1), ((Object2) and (Object3)).)




=================================================
Americans speak and write English in a lazy manner. The placement of sentence structure within quotes and dropping the second comma are the result of laziness becoming standard in American English. This result of laziness creates ambiguity within our language that requires memorization instead of an understanding of logical sentence construction.

Personally, I discount reasoning that is declared in a lazy manner. If a person is going to make the effort to state their opinion or reasoning, then it is best not to be lazy about it. Honestly, if someone does not care enough about their reasoning to state it correctly, then I will not care enough about their reasoning to consider it.
Click to expand...

Hate to break it to you, but in American English you're wrong on both counts. The punctuation should be inside the quote and, in the case of lists, it is completely optional to list the final comma (x, y, and z or x, y and z are both acceptable). I do agree that it is clearer if you include the comma before the "and," but it is not required.
 
C

chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
3,399
3
71
Mike Gayner said:
Except that it's 100&#37; wrong.
Click to expand...

chusteczka said:
... Honestly, if someone does not care enough about their reasoning to state it correctly, then I will not care enough about their reasoning to consider it.
Click to expand...

Correspondingly, if someone does not care enough about their statement to justify it, then I will not care enough about their statement to consider it.



BeauJangles said:
Hate to break it to you, but in American English you're wrong on both counts. The punctuation should be inside the quote and, in the case of lists, it is completely optional to list the final comma (x, y, and z or x, y and z are both acceptable).
Click to expand...

chusteczka said:
... Americans speak and write English in a lazy manner. The placement of sentence structure within quotes and dropping the second comma are the result of laziness becoming standard in American English. This result of laziness creates ambiguity within our language that requires memorization instead of an understanding of logical sentence construction.

Personally, I discount reasoning that is declared in a lazy manner. If a person is going to make the effort to state their opinion or reasoning, then it is best not to be lazy about it. ...
Click to expand...

Your statement was not lazy BeauJangles, this is just the reasoning why I do not agree with it.
 
Y

yankeesfan

Diamond Member
Aug 6, 2004
5,922
1
71
BeauJangles said:
Hate to break it to you, but in American English you're wrong on both counts. The punctuation should be inside the quote and, in the case of lists, it is completely optional to list the final comma (x, y, and z or x, y and z are both acceptable). I do agree that it is clearer if you include the comma before the "and," but it is not required.
Click to expand...
He is absolutely not "wrong". The way that he explains is the more intelligent way to write. Anyone with an understanding of logic can see this.
 
Nik

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
BeauJangles said:
Hate to break it to you, but in American English you're wrong on both counts. The punctuation should be inside the quote and, in the case of lists, it is completely optional to list the final comma (x, y, and z or x, y and z are both acceptable). I do agree that it is clearer if you include the comma before the "and," but it is not required.
Click to expand...

I'll contest the comma bit. It's not optional. Lists of 3 or more require a comma after each list item, including just before the conjunction.
 
C

chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
3,399
3
71
BoomerD said:
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm
Click to expand...

... In the United States, periods and commas go inside quotation marks regardless of logic. ... In the United Kingdom, Canada, and islands under the influence of British education, punctuation around quotation marks is more apt to follow logic. ...
Click to expand...

yankeesfan said:
He is absolutely not "wrong". The way that he explains is the more intelligent way to write. Anyone with an understanding of logic can see this.
Click to expand...

I sometimes wonder about the social limitations of logic. It is difficult to determine if these social limitations are due to increased efficiency or insufficient education.
 
n yusef

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Please read some foreign publications. The syntactical differences between Anglophone states (not to mention the linguistic diversity that exists within each state) should show you that linguistic prescriptivism at this level of pedantry is silly.
 
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