- Oct 24, 2000
- 29,767
- 33
- 81
Grammar Nazis: Ms. or Mrs. ?
- Thread starter GTaudiophile
- Start date
rudder
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2000
- 19,441
- 86
- 91
Ms. (pronounced mizz) is a title used with the last name of a woman. Unlike the more traditional titles Miss and Mrs., it does not bear any reference to the woman's marital status, as Mr. does not for a man.
Although it is usually believed to be a creation of modern feminism, Ms. was sporadically used as an abbreviation for the title "Mistress" (just like Mrs.) as early as the 1700s, and the pronunciation mizz for Mrs. was colloquial in the American South and other areas. Indeed "Mistress" originally did not bear reference to marital status either, until the title separated into the diminutive "Miss" and abbreviation "Mrs." in the Victorian era.
Its usage was championed as non-sexist language beginning in the 1970s, especially in business usage, by those who argue that a woman's marital status is of no relevance in such a context. Starting in the 1970s, many women insisted on being called Ms. for political reasons, and a major feminist magazine is named Ms. Magazine.
The Times (US) states in its style guide that "Ms is nowadays fully acceptable when a woman wants to be called thus, or when it is not known for certain if she is Mrs or Miss."
The Guardian (UK) states in its style guide that: "We use whichever the woman in question prefers: with most women in public life (Ms Booth, Mrs May, Miss Widdecombe) that preference is well known; if you don't know, try to find out; if that proves impossible, use Ms".
Although some socially conservative women object to the use of Ms., the title is now standard, especially in business -- and where one may not know or find relevant the marital status of the woman so addressed. The title Miss is now considered quite old-fashioned -- except for actresses and entertainers, and sometimes for young girls. The title Mrs. is still in common use, especially by women who have taken their husband's family name.
Several public opponents of "nonsexist language", such as William Safire, were convinced that Ms. had earned a place in English by the case of Geraldine A. Ferraro. Ms. Ferraro, a United States vice presidential candidate in 1984, was a married woman who went by her birth surname rather than her husband's (Zaccaro). Safire pointed out that it would be equally incorrect to call her "Miss Ferraro" or "Mrs. Ferraro" -- or to confuse the reader by calling her "Mrs. Zaccaro"!
In other languages, nonsexist usage in this regard usually amounts to using the equivalent of Mrs. (madame, señora, Frau) for both married and unmarried women. This makes sense as these titles are usually the direct feminine equivalents of the male titles, whereas the equivalent of Miss is a diminutive.
Although it is usually believed to be a creation of modern feminism, Ms. was sporadically used as an abbreviation for the title "Mistress" (just like Mrs.) as early as the 1700s, and the pronunciation mizz for Mrs. was colloquial in the American South and other areas. Indeed "Mistress" originally did not bear reference to marital status either, until the title separated into the diminutive "Miss" and abbreviation "Mrs." in the Victorian era.
Its usage was championed as non-sexist language beginning in the 1970s, especially in business usage, by those who argue that a woman's marital status is of no relevance in such a context. Starting in the 1970s, many women insisted on being called Ms. for political reasons, and a major feminist magazine is named Ms. Magazine.
The Times (US) states in its style guide that "Ms is nowadays fully acceptable when a woman wants to be called thus, or when it is not known for certain if she is Mrs or Miss."
The Guardian (UK) states in its style guide that: "We use whichever the woman in question prefers: with most women in public life (Ms Booth, Mrs May, Miss Widdecombe) that preference is well known; if you don't know, try to find out; if that proves impossible, use Ms".
Although some socially conservative women object to the use of Ms., the title is now standard, especially in business -- and where one may not know or find relevant the marital status of the woman so addressed. The title Miss is now considered quite old-fashioned -- except for actresses and entertainers, and sometimes for young girls. The title Mrs. is still in common use, especially by women who have taken their husband's family name.
Several public opponents of "nonsexist language", such as William Safire, were convinced that Ms. had earned a place in English by the case of Geraldine A. Ferraro. Ms. Ferraro, a United States vice presidential candidate in 1984, was a married woman who went by her birth surname rather than her husband's (Zaccaro). Safire pointed out that it would be equally incorrect to call her "Miss Ferraro" or "Mrs. Ferraro" -- or to confuse the reader by calling her "Mrs. Zaccaro"!
In other languages, nonsexist usage in this regard usually amounts to using the equivalent of Mrs. (madame, señora, Frau) for both married and unmarried women. This makes sense as these titles are usually the direct feminine equivalents of the male titles, whereas the equivalent of Miss is a diminutive.
well yourpost was too long to read entirely
but i rad the last paragraph and in french madame is ONLY to be used to refer to a married woman
mademoiselle is used for a single woman
Nonsexist, maybe, but every ounce of "politeness" I know says to call a woman you don't know by senorita, fraulein or mademoiselle.
iirc, in switzerland you call a woman madame if you don't know her status because to assume she is single and call her mademoiselle is to imply she is not marriage material, essentially an insult.
i hope someone more familiar with swiss custom can confirm or refute as i'm not positive.
in france mademoiselle is actually a very nice way of calling a non married woman
madame is reserved normally for married women but those rules are bent a lot these days
Could be Swiss custom.
What I knew of France, Spain, Germany (and I could ALSO be wrong
) was the opposite. To call a woman by the "married" name when she is not implies that she is old and no longer beautiful, but to call her by the "unmarried" word implies that you think she is too young and pretty to be married already.That's just what I've heard hehe
- Oct 24, 2000
- 29,767
- 33
- 81
I know the Germans nolonger use Fraulein, so that's why I was leaning towards Mrs.
Thanks for the help.
Thanks for the help.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
It always comes back to bite you in the ass Skoorb - being married for any length of time you should know that already. ;P
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Actually, Fräulein(mademoiselle(sp?)) isn't used anymore... it's kinda old-school. We only use Frau(madame).
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter