Grad School

[DarrelSPowers]

No, no sex for sale here.

Anyway, I'm approaching a crossroads in my life. In may 2009 I'll finally graduate with my BS in mechanical engineering. My biggest problem is where to go from here. I've had quite a few engineering internships so far, from steam turbine design, to a matinence engineer at a cement factory, to designing HVAC systems for green buildings. The thing that is bothering me is how many more options and career paths I could have once I graduate. Grad school is something I definitely want to do someday, but I'm not from the wealthiest of families so I've piled up a good chunk of student loans (close to 30K) and can't really justify taking more out to immediately go to grad school.

First off, getting my masters in engineering seems fairly easy, as I only need to take 6 more classes at my current university to get it, can probably take them at night, and could probably justify getting money from my current job to pay for it, assuming they hire me upon graduating.

Two other options I've been thinking about are getting an MBA, or some form of law degree.

My reasons for seeking an MBA are to move up to a management position in whatever company I end up working for. I constantly hear complaints from full time engineers about managers who are clueless about the engineering aspects of the business, and it makes me wonder if I could someday be better at their job because of my engineering background.

Law school is something that my dad mentioned to me about a year ago, and a long time ago (HS) I was thinking about being a lawyer, but that faded once I started taking AP physics and realized how much I loved physics and science. I do very well in technical writing classes, and have always been the compiler/editor for group lab reports and such, mostly because I enjoy the change from regular engineering classwork (tons and tons of problems). My dad is a civil engineer, and said alot of engineers go into patent law. I was hoping someone here could give me a better understanding of what a patent lawyer actually does, what the pay is like, and what kind of hours they are required to pull. I read a bit about it on wikipedia, but it was basically the same vague explanation that my dad gave me.

Also, my current job is in green building design, so I've also thought about going to school for environmental law. I also read the wiki article about this, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what an environmental lawyer would actually do, and where I could work once I get the degree. Also, would the pay even justify the investment required to get the degree?

Another thing that I'd like to figure out is what sort of job I could try to find upon graduation that would help finance a law or business degree. The company I'm currently working for has an educational stipend for full time employees, but I'm assuming they wouldn't pay for anything but masters in engineering classes, or possibly business classes (unlikely I'd say), but definetly not for law school.

I guess the biggest deal for me is the cost of education. There's nothing left in the Bank of Dad, and I don't know if I can justify going into even more debt than I already am, but I desperately want to continue my education. I've done fairly well in school so far (3.4GPA) but I've been working 20-30 hours a week even when taking 19 credit semesters so I don't have alot of the same extracurriculars that more affluent students have when applying to grad school, and this may hurt my chances at getting scholarships.

So yeah, very long post, but its a slow friday at work, and I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks,

DSP

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers
No, no sex for sale here.

Anyway, I'm approaching a crossroads in my life. In may 2009 I'll finally graduate with my BS in mechanical engineering. My biggest problem is where to go from here. I've had quite a few engineering internships so far, from steam turbine design, to a matinence engineer at a cement factory, to designing HVAC systems for green buildings. The thing that is bothering me is how many more options and career paths I could have once I graduate. Grad school is something I definitely want to do someday, but I'm not from the wealthiest of families so I've piled up a good chunk of student loans (close to 30K) and can't really justify taking more out to immediately go to grad school.

First off, getting my masters in engineering seems fairly easy, as I only need to take 6 more classes at my current university to get it, can probably take them at night, and could probably justify getting money from my current job to pay for it, assuming they hire me upon graduating.

Two other options I've been thinking about are getting an MBA, or some form of law degree.

My reasons for seeking an MBA are to move up to a management position in whatever company I end up working for. I constantly hear complaints from full time engineers about managers who are clueless about the engineering aspects of the business, and it makes me wonder if I could someday be better at their job because of my engineering background.

Law school is something that my dad mentioned to me about a year ago, and a long time ago (HS) I was thinking about being a lawyer, but that faded once I started taking AP physics and realized how much I loved physics and science. I do very well in technical writing classes, and have always been the compiler/editor for group lab reports and such, mostly because I enjoy the change from regular engineering classwork (tons and tons of problems). My dad is a civil engineer, and said alot of engineers go into patent law. I was hoping someone here could give me a better understanding of what a patent lawyer actually does, what the pay is like, and what kind of hours they are required to pull. I read a bit about it on wikipedia, but it was basically the same vague explanation that my dad gave me.

Also, my current job is in green building design, so I've also thought about going to school for environmental law. I also read the wiki article about this, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what an environmental lawyer would actually do, and where I could work once I get the degree. Also, would the pay even justify the investment required to get the degree?

Another thing that I'd like to figure out is what sort of job I could try to find upon graduation that would help finance a law or business degree. The company I'm currently working for has an educational stipend for full time employees, but I'm assuming they wouldn't pay for anything but masters in engineering classes, or possibly business classes (unlikely I'd say), but definetly not for law school.

I guess the biggest deal for me is the cost of education. There's nothing left in the Bank of Dad, and I don't know if I can justify going into even more debt than I already am, but I desperately want to continue my education. I've done fairly well in school so far (3.4GPA) but I've been working 20-30 hours a week even when taking 19 credit semesters so I don't have alot of the same extracurriculars that more affluent students have when applying to grad school, and this may hurt my chances at getting scholarships.

So yeah, very long post, but its a slow friday at work, and I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks,

DSP

You research patents/patent apps all day. I've heard it is boring and the hours are long. I went to school with a few guys that went into IP law and they work about 60 hours/week but it depends if you go to a firm or large corp. A few went to work with P&G and I suspect they don't put in much more than 50 hours/week. As far as pay, even in Cincinnati, the starting pay is probably close to $125K/year.

 

[DarrelSPowers]

Originally posted by: RKS
You research patents/patent apps all day. I've heard it is boring and the hours are long. I went to school with a few guys that went into IP law and they work about 60 hours/week but it depends if you go to a firm or large corp. A few went to work with P&G and I suspect they don't put in much more than 50 hours/week. As far as pay, even in Cincinnati, the starting pay is probably close to $125K/year.

Yeah, I was looking on craigslist for job postings, and theres tons of jobs for patent lawyers out there... no amount of money can justify boring ass work for me.

 

[SandEagle]

MBA is a smart choice...you've already got the engineering background in undergrad, go for management... why not consider a joint MBA/JD program? In most cases, it takes an additional year to complete.

 

[DarrelSPowers]

Originally posted by: rrahman1
MBA is a smart choice...you've already got the engineering background in undergrad, go for management... why not consider a joint MBA/JD program? In most cases, it takes an additional year to complete.

Can you explain this a bit more?

JD = Juris Doctorate right? So its a combo of business and law degree?... definitely interesting, going to have to look into this. Any semi-affordable schools that offer this?

 

[ItTheCow]

Become an RA (research assistant) or TA (teaching assistant). I'm an RA and I get my tuition waived and a monthly stipend. All I'm responsible for is a $1000 per semester student fee.

 

[SandEagle]

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers

Originally posted by: rrahman1
MBA is a smart choice...you've already got the engineering background in undergrad, go for management... why not consider a joint MBA/JD program? In most cases, it takes an additional year to complete.

Can you explain this a bit more?

JD = Juris Doctorate right? So its a combo of business and law degree?... definitely interesting, going to have to look into this. Any semi-affordable schools that offer this?

Yeah, JD is the Juris Doctorate law degree. Most colleges will reduce the number of credits for the MBA if you do a joint program. See link below for example. It can be anywhere from 12-18 credits, depending on the university. As far as affordability, are you looking at ivy vs. state? A buddy of mine went to a state college, paid about 25-30K and is now banking over 250K with his education... good luck!

http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu.../joint-degrees/jd-mba/

 

[Paperdoc]

Been a long time since my grad school days, but here are thoughts anyway.

Grad school in not likely to get you more money in pay. There are many fewer jobs that REQUIRE the advanced degree and will pay extra for it, so you often end up in a job that only pays for the regular Bachelor's-level degree. And a Master's degree is tricky. A PhD will get you into very advanced jobs or academics (the latter is not real good pay, either!), but a Master's usually will not. However, doing grad school can be very enjoyable. So, if you want the fun and lifestyle of that "work" for another year and can afford to delay earning bigger bucks, that is a good choice. But don't regard it as an investment in higher starting salary or lifetime earnings.

A great many entry-level Engineering jobs lead within the organization to intermediate and more senior levels of operations management. The frustrating part is that no engineering school teaches that stuff, and Engineers and scientists 5 to 10 years into their careers are expected to know how to manage everything with no formal training! Moreover, many employers do not run in-house management training programs, other than on-the-job- learn by watching your boss. So taking a job in your field, Mechanical Engineering, and then working on a business management degree part time would be a great way to get that training and put yourself in a good position within the company for promotion. The downside is it will suck up your spare time / social life for a while. But you get started right away on career experience and paying back loans, rather than building more debt.

Switching fields now into law, patents, etc should only be considered if you feel you would like that work a lot more than what you're doing now. You seem to recognize that this path would take much more time and money (i.e., more debt to pay, and delays in starting to pay off). If you really like Mech Eng work, why change? Once you take a law program you would have the choice of practicing in one field or the other, but there are few jobs that would really use BOTH sets of training. Your Dad has a job like that, but I would bet if you check carefully you'd find that a Patent Lawyer needs to have a law degree, but there are many working in Patent Lawyer firms that do NOT - they need Engineers to advise the lawyers! And for sure you would not get paid 50% more just because you have degrees in two professions.

 

[halik]

You won't get into a worthwhile MBA program without years of work experience. Avg age of top MBA programs is 28-30.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
...

Switching fields now into law, patents, etc should only be considered if you feel you would like that work a lot more than what you're doing now. You seem to recognize that this path would take much more time and money (i.e., more debt to pay, and delays in starting to pay off). If you really like Mech Eng work, why change? Once you take a law program you would have the choice of practicing in one field or the other, but there are few jobs that would really use BOTH sets of training. Your Dad has a job like that, but I would bet if you check carefully you'd find that a Patent Lawyer needs to have a law degree, but there are many working in Patent Lawyer firms that do NOT - they need Engineers to advise the lawyers! And for sure you would not get paid 50% more just because you have degrees in two professions.

I'm not sure of ME starting salaries. Assuming it is $60K, you will get more than a 50% increase if you pass law school/patent bar. I think the average starting IP attorney salary in 2005 was $100K.

 

[Triumph]

I'm not sure how old you are, but a typical undergraduate with a few internships hasn't done a whole lot of "real" engineering, because they don't teach that in school, and it takes a couple years in the real world to really learn it. but i don't know you so i may be talking out my ass. anyway, lots of companies will pay for a graduate degree. i know the government will. my office (government) paid for many of our masters and PhD's. a friend who worked at the US patent office said that they were encouraged to go for a graduate degree in patent law (he moved to private industry, though). but on the other hand, 6 classes is nothing, that's an "average" semester, or two very easy semesters. i don't even know if you can make that two semesters and still be a full time student. if you really think you know what you want to do, go to grad school and get a TA position to pay for it.

 

[Special K]

I'll just offer a few quick comments:

1. One positive of engineering grad school is that you can land an RA or TA position that will completely cover your tuition and fees, and will provide you with a living stipend. It's not a ton of money, but it's enough to live like a student while you are going to school. I don't think JD or MBA programs will give you this much free money to attend their programs.

2. You don't NEED an MBA to be a manager at an engineering company. It all depends on how the company is structured. Here, all of the managers are engineers. Additionally, there are two ladders within the company: management and technical. The pay scales the same up to the SVP level, so if an engineer wants to work as an engineer, they aren't going to hit some arbitrary ceiling because of it.

 

[CountZero]

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
...

Switching fields now into law, patents, etc should only be considered if you feel you would like that work a lot more than what you're doing now. You seem to recognize that this path would take much more time and money (i.e., more debt to pay, and delays in starting to pay off). If you really like Mech Eng work, why change? Once you take a law program you would have the choice of practicing in one field or the other, but there are few jobs that would really use BOTH sets of training. Your Dad has a job like that, but I would bet if you check carefully you'd find that a Patent Lawyer needs to have a law degree, but there are many working in Patent Lawyer firms that do NOT - they need Engineers to advise the lawyers! And for sure you would not get paid 50% more just because you have degrees in two professions.

I'm not sure of ME starting salaries. Assuming it is $60K, you will get more than a 50% increase if you pass law school/patent bar. I think the average starting IP attorney salary in 2005 was $100K.

For big firms starting salary is right around $125k. I seriously looked into IP law while I was working on my MSEE. Talked with a few big firm recruiters that do alot of IP work. First to be a patent lawyer you must have a science or engineering degree, it is a requirement of the patent bar. Second, at the places I spoke with, they hire based on your science/eng. background as much as your law work. You have to be able to read complex patents and discern notable similarities and differences. That is the job, compare and contrast patents, write up patents for things from company X to be as broad as you can possibly get away with.

Anyways I'd only do law if you knew you really wanted to do law. It is expensive and the ranking of the school you go to can have a major impact on your job prospects so you can't really skimp.

As for the MS you could probably do it for free. I know of no one that paid for their MSEE (or PhD for that matter) while I was in school. Talk to advisors about what it takes to get TA/RA positions and what those cover. I can't speak for ME but for EE the MS can open doors that would be shut to an entry level BS holder and the ROI for a MS is generally worth it.