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Grab the Torch

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Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,179
1
81
I've been watching it with plenty of amusement. So far the French have put on the best protests and I doubt they'll be topped by SF (come on, when was the last time SF protesters brought down a government?)
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,677
0
0
it would be hilarious if the torch decided to change route and skip over SF completely due to the threat of protests. Then the massive demonstrations and protests planned would have been wasted, since there was no torch proceeding through the city :D.

I'll be in Berkeley tomorrow. Man, I would love to see it come through here.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
I'm waiting for the torch to get to the USA, just from the response of the nut jobs here, I'm thinking it's gonna be pretty entertaining....


Grabs lawn chair and popcorn! Maybe the cops here will test out some new cool tazers!!!


:)
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
ericlp:

"Maybe the cops here will test out some new cool tazers!!!"

The U.S. has not become another province of China, so it's highly unlikely something like that will happen. The joke's really on the moronic Chinese leaders who think that they're now in the big leagues simply because they've become the world's laborers. They'll wish they'd never bid for the Olympics before this whole thing is over.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,909
2
76
Originally posted by: LongCoolMother
it would be hilarious if the torch decided to change route and skip over SF completely due to the threat of protests. Then the massive demonstrations and protests planned would have been wasted, since there was no torch proceeding through the city :D.

I'll be in Berkeley tomorrow. Man, I would love to see it come through here.
fly in an fly out quickly. run run run...I think that would be more embarrassing to China than to the protesters sitting there twiddling their thumbs. And it would accomplish what the protesters wanted by impeding the progression of the torch race. China doesn't want to change course or bow to foreign pressure. They would rather get peed on by Japanese than submit to foreign pressure and have dialogue with the Dalai Lama. They will certainly not let a bunch of protesters alter the course of their torch race.

Hey, take the BART to SF! Go cheer or protest and come back and tell us about it. :)
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
56,511
4,910
126
I don't remember in my life a time when the Olympic torch runners were so attacked. Occasional protests along the route...yes, but I do not remember people along the way attempting to wrest the torch from the runner to extinguish it. I also don't remember ever seeing a torch carrier ringed by security like they have been this year.

Thye run in San Francisco tomorrow should be...interesting to say the least.

The husband of one of the campus bus drivers is a S.F. County Sheriff Deputy, and apparently, they're ALL on duty tomorrow, and are expecting serious trouble.

Boycott Bejing.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,384
87
91
Since running around the world with the torch was thought of by the Nazis in order to celebrate the Third Reich it surprising they keep doing that anyway.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
0
0
I have seen this on the news and it is one of the most horrible and dispicible things I can think of. Clearly these people do not understand the purpose of the Olympics. It is supposed to be a sporting competion where the world can put aside politics for a couple of weeks every four years. Now I know China is trying to make a political message with it, but people attacking members of the relay are even worse. Attacking innocent people isn't exactly my view of a good way to protest violence. Usually I don't care too much about politics and the like, but seeing this just makes me want to fucking punch some of the protesters in the face. I mean if I were a cop and a bunch of protestors started attacking an innocent person just because they are carrying a symbol for a PEACEFULL sporting competition I would want to beat their faces in with my billy club. There, I said it I would condone police brutality in this case. I mean I know thats a horrible thing to say and I don't *really* like seeing people hurt, but this is NOT the way to go about making your political point heard. It is one of those cases where no matter how good you point might be your completely cheapen it with these idiotic protests.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
345
126
Originally posted by: BrownTown
I have seen this on the news and it is one of the most horrible and dispicible things I can think of. Clearly these people do not understand the purpose of the Olympics. It is supposed to be a sporting competion where the world can put aside politics for a couple of weeks every four years. Now I know China is trying to make a political message with it, but people attacking members of the relay are even worse. Attacking innocent people isn't exactly my view of a good way to protest violence. Usually I don't care too much about politics and the like, but seeing this just makes me want to fucking punch some of the protesters in the face. I mean if I were a cop and a bunch of protestors started attacking an innocent person just because they are carrying a symbol for a PEACEFULL sporting competition I would want to beat their faces in with my billy club. There, I said it I would condone police brutality in this case. I mean I know thats a horrible thing to say and I don't *really* like seeing people hurt, but this is NOT the way to go about making your political point heard. It is one of those cases where no matter how good you point might be your completely cheapen it with these idiotic protests.
I can't agree with you. I understand your point about the idealism of the games, but that horse has left the barn when the nations use them for such positive publicity.

When they're held in a nation that's so opposed, there's going to be protest, and that's a good thing. It's society having some standards and showing it does.

It's not neat and clean, but how can the public express its disapproval of China and Tibet? Letters to the editor go so far. The UN is a pretty indirect form of expression for the public.

You might say 'don't buy Chinese goods' but unfortunately, that's not a terribly effective way either, at least not instead of more direct protests.

It's a little like going to a party OJ Simpson is invited to. Do you stay and let him be treated like anyone else, or do you ostracize him by refusing to go or saying something?

If everyone did not protest, it would seem like it's a level of approval of China's behavior in Tibet - 'we don't like it, but we aren't serious enough to put off the games with you.'

And don't forget the precedent has been set for there being a political element, with the US and USSR each boycotting games in the past.
 

LongCoolMother

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2001
5,677
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: BrownTown
I have seen this on the news and it is one of the most horrible and dispicible things I can think of. Clearly these people do not understand the purpose of the Olympics. It is supposed to be a sporting competion where the world can put aside politics for a couple of weeks every four years. Now I know China is trying to make a political message with it, but people attacking members of the relay are even worse. Attacking innocent people isn't exactly my view of a good way to protest violence. Usually I don't care too much about politics and the like, but seeing this just makes me want to fucking punch some of the protesters in the face. I mean if I were a cop and a bunch of protestors started attacking an innocent person just because they are carrying a symbol for a PEACEFULL sporting competition I would want to beat their faces in with my billy club. There, I said it I would condone police brutality in this case. I mean I know thats a horrible thing to say and I don't *really* like seeing people hurt, but this is NOT the way to go about making your political point heard. It is one of those cases where no matter how good you point might be your completely cheapen it with these idiotic protests.
I can't agree with you. I understand your point about the idealism of the games, but that horse has left the barn when the nations use them for such positive publicity.

When they're held in a nation that's so opposed, there's going to be protest, and that's a good thing. It's society having some standards and showing it does.

It's not neat and clean, but how can the public express its disapproval of China and Tibet? Letters to the editor go so far. The UN is a pretty indirect form of expression for the public.

You might say 'don't buy Chinese goods' but unfortunately, that's not a terribly effective way either, at least not instead of more direct protests.

It's a little like going to a party OJ Simpson is invited to. Do you stay and let him be treated like anyone else, or do you ostracize him by refusing to go or saying something?

If everyone did not protest, it would seem like it's a level of approval of China's behavior in Tibet - 'we don't like it, but we aren't serious enough to put off the games with you.'

And don't forget the precedent has been set for there being a political element, with the US and USSR each boycotting games in the past.
I don't see anything wrong with protesting, but in my opinion, from what I have seen, it's getting quite out of hand. The past few days in London and then Paris have escalated pretty severely and we'll see how things turn out in San Francisco tomorrow.

Mind you, I go to Berkeley, so I see a crapload of protests here. Including anti-marines, save the oaks, all the good stuff. Granted, they aren't as widespread, but the most that ever happens are some minor scuffles and heated verbal exchanges.

What I've seen from videos on these recent protests are people disrupting every Olympic ceremony they can possibly find in every way possible and pretty much making things descend into a state of chaos. if you don't believe me, flip on CNN and watch people get tackled by police every <1 min. Is this a good example of democracy?
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
29
86
I'm all in favor of China having egg all over its face re: Tibet, but harassing the torchbearers is out of line IMO.

These people aren't necessarily endorsing the politics of China. They're honoring the Olympic tradition. Leave 'em the fuck alone.

The best reason for boycotting the '08 Summer Olympics IMO is the fact that Beijing is a smog-ridden toxic waste pit unfit for the presence of any world-class athletes.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
0
0
ITs not that i am against protestors, its that I am against protestors attacking people. Also, I know that some people don't like China here, but the olympics are *supposed* to be allowed to transcend politics and all this bickering. And maybe I am pulling a MoonBeam here, but if you want to make an anti-China protest do it against something that is actually CHINEESE, like their products or buisnesses or something like that, don't attack an international sporting even just because you don't like the country its held in this time around.

There are so few things these days trying to stress world peace and the Olypics is one of them. Maybe its not perfect, we all know that people have used it for politics before (most notably Hitler), but I just don't see how attacking innocent people who are supporting a sporting event based around peacefull world competition is somehow a good way to protest Chinese involvement in Tibet.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
BrownTown,

This is not about politics, it is about oppression. When a people are crowded out of their own land and even peaceful protest is met with brutality, they are forced to do whatever they can to publicize their terrible situation. So also with the Tibetans.

The protests in London and Paris have caused very little physical damage, a few minor injuries and no deaths. In many cases, it is the protestors who place themselves and not others in harms way to publicize their cause (e.g. those who scaled the Golden Gate Bridge to put up the banners).

The only injuries that the Chinese Communists have suffered in all of this is the one to their egos. Which is the whole point of the protests.

 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
0
0
Originally posted by: tvarad
BrownTown,

This is not about politics, it is about oppression. When a people are crowded out of their own land and even peaceful protest is met with brutality, they are forced to do whatever they can to publicize their terrible situation. So also with the Tibetans.
OK, we all know what its about, the question is why attack the freaking olympic torch, thats the part that doesn't make sense. I mean why not attack Chinese buisness, or people using Chinese products, or something like that? I mean personally thats how you protest a country in my view. I mean hell, the protestors are probably making signs using stuff made in China to protest China!

Also, it sure as heck isn't a bunch of liberals in California or Europe who are being opressed, they just love going out for a nice day of protesting and then not doing a damn thing real about the cause except for saying some bad words and making some signs.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
9
91
Originally posted by: BrownTown
ITs not that i am against protestors, its that I am against protestors attacking people. Also, I know that some people don't like China here, but the olympics are *supposed* to be allowed to transcend politics and all this bickering. And maybe I am pulling a MoonBeam here, but if you want to make an anti-China protest do it against something that is actually CHINEESE, like their products or buisnesses or something like that, don't attack an international sporting even just because you don't like the country its held in this time around.

There are so few things these days trying to stress world peace and the Olypics is one of them. Maybe its not perfect, we all know that people have used it for politics before (most notably Hitler), but I just don't see how attacking innocent people who are supporting a sporting event based around peacefull world competition is somehow a good way to protest Chinese involvement in Tibet.
QFT.

I agree whole heardetly. While I do appreciate the protester cause, going after the torch doesn't seem like the beest way to do it. I was listening to the radio, and they interviewed a buch of protesters, and they all said that they would go after the flame if it got near them.

The only feeling I got was a bunch of douchebags. The flame represents unity and peace. The very people trying to "save" tibet are the same people who are using force to ram through police officers and putting the runners at a risk of injury
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
BrownTown,
It's the symbolism that's being protested. The Olympics is supposed to be the event to showcase China's entrance onto the developed world's stage. The protestors are proving that the slip is still showing.

BTW, this story shows how out of tune China is with the spirit of the Games. Reminds me of Hitler's storm troopers.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
Maybe we ought to give the torch runner a gas mask, with a pack of oxygen tanks... And a crap load of gas grenades .... ;)

I didn't see a lot of protesters. I think the majority have no problem with China hosting the Olympics. I don't have a problem with it.

I'm with BrownTown...

If your gonna protest do it with a (brain) and do it with some peaceful standing on the side line with a banner or t-shirt or whatever. But when you start attacking then you gonna get tazzed or thumped. Period... These people that think they can act violently in some sort of gang need to be dealt with. We don't tolerate those actions... Think about it... If you were running with the torch, say it was something you were looking forward too doing... Personally I could care less, but that person running with the torch I am sure is happy to do so. Anyway, lets say that person is you... and you getting beer cans, rocks, etc...etc.. thrown at you... then you got people running at you wanting to do bodily harm... I mean sheesh....

Do we really have to act this way?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
I have seen this on the news and it is one of the most horrible and dispicible things I can think of. Clearly these people do not understand the purpose of the Olympics. It is supposed to be a sporting competion where the world can put aside politics for a couple of weeks every four years. Now I know China is trying to make a political message with it, but people attacking members of the relay are even worse. Attacking innocent people isn't exactly my view of a good way to protest violence. Usually I don't care too much about politics and the like, but seeing this just makes me want to fucking punch some of the protesters in the face. I mean if I were a cop and a bunch of protestors started attacking an innocent person just because they are carrying a symbol for a PEACEFULL sporting competition I would want to beat their faces in with my billy club. There, I said it I would condone police brutality in this case. I mean I know thats a horrible thing to say and I don't *really* like seeing people hurt, but this is NOT the way to go about making your political point heard. It is one of those cases where no matter how good you point might be your completely cheapen it with these idiotic protests.
If it's supposed to be a sporting event to put aside politics, shouldn't Taiwan be able to participate under its own name? China has politicized the Olympics.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
17,473
7,855
136
I'm all in favor of China having egg all over its face re: Tibet, but harassing the torchbearers is out of line IMO.

These people aren't necessarily endorsing the politics of China. They're honoring the Olympic tradition. Leave 'em the fuck alone.

The best reason for boycotting the '08 Summer Olympics IMO is the fact that Beijing is a smog-ridden toxic waste pit unfit for the presence of any world-class athletes.
Pretty much my standpoint as well, although I don't think the pollution (which is INSANE in China) is the overarching point of contention for me.

You think Olympics and what phrase do you immediately think of? 'A celebration of humanity'

Now no country operates with completely white gloves, there are always exceptions and selectively enforced laws for a myriad of reasons, but what other country does the shit that China does to it's own people? I have a lot of trouble equating a celebration of humanity with a host that imposes abortions and organ harvesting on it's citizens/criminals. Imprisonment and torture of Falun Gong members makes our water-boarding bullshit look completely tame in comparison.

I no longer have any interest in the Games now really... it's been taken over by image, money, and politics.

 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
431
126
Originally posted by: ericlp
Maybe we ought to give the torch runner a gas mask, with a pack of oxygen tanks... And a crap load of gas grenades .... ;)
I see a movie script in this!
 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,358
0
71
Originally posted by: Painman
I'm all in favor of China having egg all over its face re: Tibet, but harassing the torchbearers is out of line IMO.

These people aren't necessarily endorsing the politics of China. They're honoring the Olympic tradition. Leave 'em the fuck alone.

The best reason for boycotting the '08 Summer Olympics IMO is the fact that Beijing is a smog-ridden toxic waste pit unfit for the presence of any world-class athletes.
If they shouldn't do this form of non-violent protest then what would you recommend that could get anywhere close to this sort of publicity? I don't give a damn about Tibet yet here I am talking about it because their non-violent protest(which I do have great respect for) is being heard around the world.
 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,358
0
71
The procession of the Olympic torch through San Francisco descended into a Benny Hill-style farce today when the flame-holders ran a few yards before disappearing into a warehouse on the waterfront.

After furious clashes throughout the morning between 'Free Tibet' protestors and pro-China demonstrators, the authorities seemed to panic, and by 1.30pm, local time - half an hour after the supposed start time - even the TV news helicopters seemed to be confused.

The runners were glimpsed momentarily but within seconds they had ducked into a warehouse in Pier 48. After around 15 minutes a convoy emerged apparently carrying the torch and its security detail. They later emerged around a mile inland and, after a substantial pause, finally set off.

Earlier, the authorities that the published route would be shortened by several miles.

"This is f***ing bullshit, man," said one spectator, who had been waiting to see the procession on 3rd Street, part of the published route. "Such subterfuge. Why even bother having the goddam event in the first place?"

Two hours before the procession was expected to begin, The Times witnessed first hand the tension between pro-Tibet groups and Chinese demonstrations, some of whom had reportedly been bused in by the Chinese embassy. One man, red faced and screaming and waving a 'Free Tibet' flag, was hauled out of the crowd by black-uniformed police and thrown into the back of a riot van. The police were immediately surrounded by a chanting mob shouting, "Free him now! Free him now!"

The stand-off ended when dozen more officers arrived, each one armed with what looked like long, thin black baseballs bats. Meanwhile, the pro-Tibetans became distracted by a group of pro-Chinese demonstrators waving red flags. The two groups stood face-to-face, shouting their slogans at each other.

It was later reported that an American man who challenged the Chinese, calling them 'Communists', had been beaten up.

When San Francisco first agreed to host the Olympic torch on its way to the summer games in Beijing, no-one could have imagined such scenes. But since the torch began its journey from Athens, passing through London and Paris, outrage over China's military crackdown in Tibet has resulted in increasingly bitter protests.

In Paris, pro-Tibet groups tackled the runners and used fire-extinguishers to put out the flame. China's blue-suited and heavy-set "flame minders" only aggravated the problem.

The authorities in San Francisco faced a different problem yesterday: more than a third of the city's residents claim some kind of Asian heritage. As a result, many of them took to the streets in support of the Chinese government.

By Tuesday night, San Francisco's Mayor, Gavin Newsom, had cancelled all police leave and put in place a massive security plan for the 80 runners: they would be protected by four-layered formation of officers on foot, on bicycles, on motorcycles and on boats in the San Francisco bay. Nevertheless, one of the runners, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, backed out because of fears over her safety.

On San Francisco's 3rd Street, near the waterfront, not all the Tibetans were happy with the way the protests were turning out.

"We just want to let the world know that we're an occupied country," said Lobsang Tsering, a 35-year-old Tibetan who works at the company in Salt Lake City that makes the Olympic medals. "We keep asking people to remember the Dalai Lama's peaceful message. We don't want violence and we don't hate the Chinese. They're just human beings like the rest of us. All we ask is for them to free our country. There were no Chinese there before the 1940s."

Many of the Chinese, meanwhile, attacked what they called the US media's "distortion" of the facts about Tibet.

"Tibet is and always has been part of China," said Chuxiang Li, a 32-year-old engineer from San Jose. "The Dalai Lama just tells lies. He says he doesn't support violence but what we have is violence."

Another Chinese demonstrator, Quan Ding, 31, a computer worker from San Meteo, was asked if he was saddened by the controversy over the summer games, which was supposed to be a mark of international respect for the government in Beijing. Mr Ding shook his head.

"We're angered, not saddened," he said.
Source: TimesOnline
 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,358
0
71
China rages over attack on disabled torch bearer

By Emma Graham-Harrison Reuters - Friday, April 11 10:58 am

BEIJING (Reuters) - A wheelchair-bound Chinese torch bearer has rocketed to national fame after fending off protesters in Paris, becoming a symbol of China's defiance of global demonstrations backing Tibet.
Jin Jing, a 27 year-old amputee and Paralympic fencer has been called the "angel in a wheelchair" and is being celebrated by television chat shows, newspapers and online musical videos after fiercely defending the Olympic torch during the Paris leg of the troubled international relay.

Protesters denouncing Chinese policy in Tibet threw themselves at Jin. Most were wrestled away by police but at least one reached her wheelchair and tried to wrench the torch away.

Jin clung tenaciously to what has become a controversial icon of the Beijing Olympic Games until her attacker was pulled off.

Her look of fierce determination as she shielded the torch, captured in snapshots of the scene, has now spread throughout China, inflaming simmering public anger at the protests.

"I thought we had lost in France, but seeing the young disabled torch bearer Jin Jing's radiant smile of conviction, I know in France we did not lose, we won!" said one of tens of thousands of Internet postings about the incident.

Chinese people are generally enthusiastic about hosting the Olympics and many have backed the government's claims that recent riots and protests in Tibet were the work of the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan Buddhist leader, seeking to upset the Games. The Dalai Lama has repeatedly rejected that claim.

Jin, cheerful and photogenic, has emerged to embody nationalist indignation at Western criticisms and protests.

"I still feel very angry now, and I think the man was very irrational," she told Reuters in an interview.

"Hosting the Olympics is such a good thing for our country, so why do they want to ruin it?"

BOYCOTT CALLS

She lost part of her right leg when she was nine after developing a tumour in her ankle, but went on to become a member of the national wheelchair fencing team and won medals in regional games in 2002, the official Xinhua news agency said.

The attack also angered Olympic chief Jacques Rogge, who said any attempt to take the torch from the athletes carrying it was destroying a dream, but Jin's injury made it even worse.

"What shocked me most is when someone tried to rob the torch off a wheelchair athlete, a disabled athlete who was unable to defend the torch. This is unacceptable," the International Olympic Committee president said on Thursday.

In China the attack has become a lightning rod for anger about the chaotic protests that have beset the torch relay from London and Paris to San Francisco.

Some bloggers called for boycotts of French goods and on one Web site a Chinese student posted pictures of the protester who got closest to Jin.

"Remember him...he'll die a terrible death," said a message attached to the pictures. Below was a stream of similar posts from visitors to the site. "This is not a person," one said.

Jin took a more balanced approach to her attacker.

"We should give him some moral education," she said, adding that there was no need to stop buying French goods.

"We can handle it more rationally, most French people are very friendly," she said.

Chinese Internet comments have also attacked Western media coverage of unrest in Tibet as biased towards pro-independence groups and have said that news reports on the torch relay ignored cheering Chinese and foreign spectators to focus on protests.

A video posted on YouTube carried a montage of photos of enthusiastic spectators and flag-waving Chinese patriots waiting for the torch, to the sound-track of a home-recorded rap called: "Our flag should not be forgotten by the world".
Source: yahoo News
 

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