Gov. Newsom proposes 28th Amendment to the US Constitution designed to reduce gun violence

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NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
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Loaded? WTH are you trying to say? The message is you should be mature. The young are generally not as mature. :rolleyes:
Yet the most gun deaths are in the age group of 24 to 35. Maine has the highest median age of 44.8 per capa , and Utah has the lowest median age of 31.1 per Capa. Yet, the gun deaths by state don't support your claim that gun deaths are tied to maturity level based on age, as Utah and Maine are within 2 positions of each other, and both are in the bottom 1/3 out of all 50 states for gun deaths per Capa. That pretty much refutes the age argument.


So yes, your argument is exactly why maturity is a loaded argument, because the numbers don't support your argument, and directly refute maturity is tied to age. Maturity is not a matter of age, but instead, of how you choose to respond and react to various life situations. Most people know right from wrong between 7 and 15 years of age, depending on what state you are in, yet they are still very immature. Why do you suppose what state you are in, influences when you learn right from wrong? Why are the majority of top 10 gun deaths per capa, red states? Why can most 7 to 15 year old know right from wrong, yet have little maturity? How can we have elderly people who are mostly considered very mature, yet not know right from wrong in some cases? You don't have to answer any of those questions, they are just an example of why maturity if a loaded argument, and why it has nothing to do with age.
 

NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,038
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This argument falls flat because the gun violence deaths that most of us are focused on are not accidental but due to an intention to kill people and in large numbers to boot. If we have more cracked sidewalks we will have more falls so we keep sidewalks in good repair. We make cars as safe as we can, divide roads and deploy police to maintain the law. We do not ban cars and trucks and other motor transport because mentally I’ll people will on occasion use them to intentionally run people down. We don’t say, we have too many vehicles on the road. The more vehicles on any one road the lower the number of deaths barring deaths by old age because you can’t speed in heavy traffic.

The only way to prevent auto deaths by willful intention to kill people is to create a society that produces less mentally I’ll people.

I didn’t bother the first time to wright all this out because the fact that accidental deaths and intentional murder are two totally different subjects and I wanted you to read what I said and see that on your own. I left hints.
Huh? You have once again proven you don't understand my point. You come back with this response, claiming my argument falls flat on it's face because accidents are not what we are focused on., Where you go on, and list many reasons accidents happen non related to guns. Yet, you don't comprehend you can fix everything you listed, yet accidents will still happen. My point though, had nothing to do with accidents, but had to do with your argument of mental illness, you know what YOU believe will end gun violence.

Rational people are focused on all areas involving guns, not just gun violence, mass shootings, and murders. You have to consider everything involving guns, as nobody can make a rational determination without doing so. Accidental gun deaths makes up the majority of ALL gun deaths, just a fact you should be aware of, so you can understand this next part. Just as accidental gun deaths won't end if we eradicate all mentally ill people from the planet (not possible), neither will gun violence, mass shootings, or murders. The very point I was making using car accidents as the example, as they also won't stop happening if all mentally ill people are irradicated. Just as fixing every crack in a sidewalk won't end people falling (your example). Why is that, and what does that tell you about your argument of mental illness ending ALL gun violence, mass shootings, and murdesr in this country?

Don't get me wrong, Mental care is something that NEEDS to be focused on in this country for reasons well beyond guns, but it is not the solution to end gun violence. Never has been, never will be.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
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I don't think it's silly. I do, however, think it's impossible. I mean, just as an example, if we could suddenly cure all depression, then basically all the suicides go away, and a portion of the homicides. Most of those mass shooters, whatever their specific motives, are afflicted with a combination of sociopathy/narcissism and rage. Depression is incredibly common and its second most prevalent symptom, after sadness, is anger. The personality disorders are largely incurable, but they don't provide the motive. They only remove a barrier to action, which is having a conscience. The motive is generally uncontrolled rage the most common cause of which is depression.

Depression, in turn, is somewhat treatable. But we already dispense billions of pills per year and treat it in various other ways. Sure, we could throw some more money at it, but it's only going to help a little. For one thing, most depressed people never bother to even seek treatment for a variety of reasons. The most important of which is that the men (mostly) who are responsible for these homicides are the sort of people who are least likely to seek out treatment because going to a doctor and saying you have emotional problem isn't "manly." Women are more likely to seek treatment but they aren't the ones doing most of the killing. So no matter how much treatment we provide, it's not going to help more than a little.

I feel the same way about the "common sense" gun restrictions we're discussing. It's just nibbling around the edges of the problem. There's only one way that would actually work: go out and collect all the guns, then disallow sales except for limited purposes with special licenses. No carry allowed outside the home without a special hunting or target shooting license.

I'm afraid that the collecting all the guns part could be a bit of a problem, to the tune of 50 more Wacos and massive bloodshed. In order for us to solve this problem, these fanatics will need to get over their obsession with guns. Which isn't happening any time soon.

Until then, I'll support the common sense restrictions. Heck, I'll even support funding more mental health treatment because it may have positive effects even if it doesn't reduce the murder rate. But I'm under no illusion that we're going to solve this problem any time during my lifetime.
I agree that better mental health would certainly reduce gun violence for suicides and mass shooters but the problem is a significant portion of gun homicides are not the product of mental illness and are in fact perfectly rational actions by criminals.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Huh? You have once again proven you don't understand my point. You come back with this response, claiming my argument falls flat on it's face because accidents are not what we are focused on., Where you go on, and list many reasons accidents happen non related to guns. Yet, you don't comprehend you can fix everything you listed, yet accidents will still happen. My point though, had nothing to do with accidents, but had to do with your argument of mental illness, you know what YOU believe will end gun violence.

Rational people are focused on all areas involving guns, not just gun violence, mass shootings, and murders. You have to consider everything involving guns, as nobody can make a rational determination without doing so. Accidental gun deaths makes up the majority of ALL gun deaths, just a fact you should be aware of, so you can understand this next part. Just as accidental gun deaths won't end if we eradicate all mentally ill people from the planet (not possible), neither will gun violence, mass shootings, or murders. The very point I was making using car accidents as the example, as they also won't stop happening if all mentally ill people are irradicated. Just as fixing every crack in a sidewalk won't end people falling (your example). Why is that, and what does that tell you about your argument of mental illness ending ALL gun violence, mass shootings, and murdesr in this country?

Don't get me wrong, Mental care is something that NEEDS to be focused on in this country for reasons well beyond guns, but it is not the solution to end gun violence. Never has been, never will be.
Gun violence and gun accidents are two different things. Psychologically, the greater the self hate and the more deeply it is repressed the greater the unconscious death wish which will equate to increased risky behaviors and less situational awareness. We have the term accident prone and self hate is among the causes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I agree that better mental health would certainly reduce gun violence for suicides and mass shooters but the problem is a significant portion of gun homicides are not the product of mental illness and are in fact perfectly rational actions by criminals.
Do you think that there are as many criminals born in Tibetan Buddhist families as there are in Mafia families? How would you rate the inner life of a monk that vows to save all sentient beings and someone who profits from making others miserable.

That you don’t see criminality as a a form of profound mental illness clarifies your position for me.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
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Cars are not designed to kill people. Neither are airplanes yet both can be used as such and we don't ban them.

Guns are designed to kill people and other living things. We don't have to ban all guns but I have yet to have anyone justify a semi-automatic rifle with a 100 round mag as anything other than an offensive weapon. No reason we can't regulate those.

Can any hunter or gun owner tell us why anything more than a handgun or single shot rifle is necessary for hunting or self protection.
What people can tell you and what you would be willing to hear may be different things. The subject of what to own for self defense is vast as is what to hunt with.

Lots of people buy SUVs so that in case someone collides with them it will be more likely the person who caused the accident will be killed. They ignore the fact that as accident they cause will more likely kill people in a smaller car.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Do you think that there are as many criminals born in Tibetan Buddhist families as there are in Mafia families? How would you rate the inner life of a monk that vows to save all sentient beings and someone who profits from making others miserable.
I have no idea how many criminals are born into those families but since that lifestyle is a choice you have introduced a fatal logical flaw to your argument.

That you don’t see criminality as a a form of profound mental illness clarifies your position for me.
Criminality is bad, but it is not inherently indicative of mental illness, or at least mental illness as our society understands it. It is kind of funny though that you think women not wearing head scarves in Iran is a symbol of their own mental illness as that is a criminal act.

Well, I assume you don't actually think that but it should show how silly saying criminality is a form of mental illness is.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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What people can tell you and what you would be willing to hear may be different things. The subject of what to own for self defense is vast as is what to hunt with.

Lots of people buy SUVs so that in case someone collides with them it will be more likely the person who caused the accident will be killed. They ignore the fact that as accident they cause will more likely kill people in a smaller car.
People do not buy SUVs to make it more likely that the other person is killed, lol. They buy them because they believe it makes them safer.

This is a good example though, actually. People buy SUVs because they think they are safer in a crash and this is largely upheld by the data. People buy guns because they think guns make them safer when in fact the opposite is true.

If guns actually made you safer that would be a good reason to buy one! The fact that they make you less safe is a great reason for a rational person not to buy one.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
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I mean this is obviously politicking from Newsom but there does need to be a blunting of that "shall not be infringed" language of the second ammendment which I feel is the root of nearly all the woes associated with that ammendment.

I don't agree with gun bans and hell I don't even agree with AR bans (frankly more people are killed by handguns than "ARs" by a longshot and those seem to never even entire into the broader conversation around guns).

However, there does need to be some basic permiting around firearms to ensure that the owner (and all others in the dwelling who may have access to the guns) is trained on it's use, the gun is properly maintained and secured, etc.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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I don't think it's silly. I do, however, think it's impossible. I mean, just as an example, if we could suddenly cure all depression, then basically all the suicides go away, and a portion of the homicides. Most of those mass shooters, whatever their specific motives, are afflicted with a combination of sociopathy/narcissism and rage. Depression is incredibly common and its second most prevalent symptom, after sadness, is anger. The personality disorders are largely incurable, but they don't provide the motive. They only remove a barrier to action, which is having a conscience. The motive is generally uncontrolled rage the most common cause of which is depression.

Depression, in turn, is somewhat treatable. But we already dispense billions of pills per year and treat it in various other ways. Sure, we could throw some more money at it, but it's only going to help a little. For one thing, most depressed people never bother to even seek treatment for a variety of reasons. The most important of which is that the men (mostly) who are responsible for these homicides are the sort of people who are least likely to seek out treatment because going to a doctor and saying you have emotional problem isn't "manly." Women are more likely to seek treatment but they aren't the ones doing most of the killing. So no matter how much treatment we provide, it's not going to help more than a little.

I feel the same way about the "common sense" gun restrictions we're discussing. It's just nibbling around the edges of the problem. There's only one way that would actually work: go out and collect all the guns, then disallow sales except for limited purposes with special licenses. No carry allowed outside the home without a special hunting or target shooting license.

I'm afraid that the collecting all the guns part could be a bit of a problem, to the tune of 50 more Wacos and massive bloodshed. In order for us to solve this problem, these fanatics will need to get over their obsession with guns. Which isn't happening any time soon.

Until then, I'll support the common sense restrictions. Heck, I'll even support funding more mental health treatment because it may have positive effects even if it doesn't reduce the murder rate. But I'm under no illusion that we're going to solve this problem any time during my lifetime.

Or we could just solve the mental illness that is gun fetishism and worship, as we see here from a current poster.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
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People do not buy SUVs to make it more likely that the other person is killed, lol. They buy them because they believe it makes them safer.

This is a good example though, actually. People buy SUVs because they think they are safer in a crash and this is largely upheld by the data. People buy guns because they think guns make them safer when in fact the opposite is true.

If guns actually made you safer that would be a good reason to buy one! The fact that they make you less safe is a great reason for a rational person not to buy one.
When you make yourself safer with an SUV you endanger everyone else in smaller cars. Obviously the data would show this. It's the people in the smaller cars that make factual those statistics.Why you buy them and what your rational reasons are, they never include the fact your driving becomes more dangerous to other people, even though that fact is obvious. Gun owners, being far less self centered people, wink wink, buy guns for self protection knowing the risk is mainly to themselves. What is reasonable is determined by context. Whatever the risks are of owning a gun for self defense I would take them because I trust my judgment over other peoples'. I just hope I'm never tested. I consider the chances of shooting myself as pretty much zero. I'm confident enough that I'll shoot myself if I'm wrong. ;)
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,527
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When you make yourself safer with an SUV you endanger everyone else in smaller cars. Obviously the data would show this. It's the people in the smaller cars that make factual those statistics.Why you buy them and what your rational reasons are, they never include the fact your driving becomes more dangerous to other people, even though that fact is obvious. Gun owners, being far less self centered people, wink wink, buy guns for self protection knowing the risk is mainly to themselves. What is reasonable is determined by context. Whatever the risks are of owning a gun for self defense I would take them because I trust my judgment over other peoples'. I just hope I'm never tested. I consider the chances of shooting myself as pretty much zero. I'm confident enough that I'll shoot myself if I'm wrong. ;)

Damn facts strikes again!

800px-US_traffic_deaths_per_VMT%2C_VMT%2C_per_capita%2C_and_total_annual_deaths.png


Compared to gun deaths trend and number of guns:


As the population increases and the number of cars and number of miles increases, the number of deaths have gone down. Where as for guns, the more guns there are the more deaths there are.

You are either a man of facts or of feels. Don’t feed us bullshit just because you aren’t interested in the facts.
 

NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,038
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Gun violence and gun accidents are two different things. Psychologically, the greater the self hate and the more deeply it is repressed the greater the unconscious death wish which will equate to increased risky behaviors and less situational awareness. We have the term accident prone and self hate is among the causes.
You seriously need to learn some comprehension skills, because once again, what I said went over your head. That or stop fucking trolling like a little bitch! You are ignoring everything being said by me, and by others and bypass what is actually being said in our posts and come back with rambling nonsense bullshit that has nothing to do with what was actually said.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
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Damn facts strikes again!

800px-US_traffic_deaths_per_VMT%2C_VMT%2C_per_capita%2C_and_total_annual_deaths.png


Compared to gun deaths trend and number of guns:


As the population increases and the number of cars and number of miles increases, the number of deaths have gone down. Where as for guns, the more guns there are the more deaths there are.

You are either a man of facts or of feels. Don’t feed us bullshit just because you aren’t interested in the facts.
One of my favorite forms of fact is physics. The energy released in a car collision will be the mass of the car times the velocity squared. That means the potential damage is proportional to the mass. Heaver vehicles at the same speed cause more damage. This is a fact or at least I think it is. But owing to the fact that car safety is a selling point and of interest to government which can get stuck with the medical bills, a great deal of technical effort has gone into making cars safer. Quality safety designs have evolved faster than the damage caused by greater mass so traffic deaths have declined. And as I said earlier, the more cars on the road the slower the average velocity of travel.

Similarly, today's guns have more and better safety features than guns in the past. The prevalence of guns, however, means that despite being safer by with more modern safety features, the number of accidents can go up. People who are scrupulous in applying safe handling of guns will have fewer accidents than less risk averse people. So the major problem will be careless and thoughtless people when it comes to gun accidents. So for me, as I said, I have little issue with taking my chances. For one thing, I haven't put ammo in a gun in years, only dummy rounds. And I check them for that still, every time I handle one. I also rarely allow the hammer to fall on an empty chamber except if needed and I'm pointing at the floor.

So, I am totally uninterested in the car vs gun debate and accidental deaths. I simply suggested there can be a relationship between mental illness and a lack of situational awareness. People are safer when they aren't self absorbed in some sort of misery. This is true of guns and cars. I also suggested that risk assessment in the choice of a car, buying big for safety, inevitably means that others become less safe in a collision with you but few care about that. There focus is on self preservation. People who have guns for self protection are the same, but in that case, the person put most at risk is themselves.

What interests me and where my focus lies is on people who use guns to intentionally inflict harm. Apparently running people over with vehicles for reasons is also growing in popularity. I believe people like that are the bleeding edge of the effects of psychological illness, revenge out of a frustrated sense of entitlement. The ego and people who are self satisfied with their social status, whose sense of entitlement is sufficiently fulfilled, can become killers if threatened with the loss of that or are unable to attain it in the first place. What happens to such people is that they are forced to face the fact that the truth is they deserve that state of worthlessness, the feeling that long ago were made to believe is their real condition, the worst person in the world, and a feeling that is not really true. Fear of feeling that feeling leads to violence toward anything that suggests it. We are triggered by imagined disrespect. Kids tortured by bullies at school, bullies that get knocked down, loss of status, loss of a lover one has actually unconsciously driven away, the inability to obtain sex, you name it, all indications that this is all justified payback because of that unconscious feeling we are worthless.

This is so obvious when you look at people who have profoundly obvious lack of self esteem. But it's the last thing we will ever look at in ourselves. And that is why humanity is insane and the real cause of gun violence never addressed. We all have within us that very same violence and add to the total disrespect going around in the world every day. Everyone of us is the cause of gun violence and so we need to look elsewhere for something to blame. "I wouldn't harm a fly", said the man who swallowed a time bomb.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,363
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Why would this be an amendment instead of a law. There seems to be nothing fundamental about it.
What comes to mind is that if it's an amendment it would not be as easy to circumvent its provisions via legislation moving forward (actually, backward, like Republicans like to do).
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,200
13,791
136
You seriously need to learn some comprehension skills, because once again, what I said went over your head. That or stop fucking trolling like a little bitch! You are ignoring everything being said by me, and by others and bypass what is actually being said in our posts and come back with rambling nonsense bullshit that has nothing to do with what was actually said.
You're only saying that because you're so full of self-hate yet unaware of it that you unconsciously reject the uncomfortable feelings of the truth he brings to offer, blah blah blah :rolleyes:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
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I have no idea how many criminals are born into those families but since that lifestyle is a choice you have introduced a fatal logical flaw to your argument.


Criminality is bad, but it is not inherently indicative of mental illness, or at least mental illness as our society understands it. It is kind of funny though that you think women not wearing head scarves in Iran is a symbol of their own mental illness as that is a criminal act.

Well, I assume you don't actually think that but it should show how silly saying criminality is a form of mental illness is.
I can’t understand what you mean by lifestyle is a choice. From my point of view the idea of free will is nonsense. It is a concept that people invent in their imaginations to justify their unconscious need to blame. Every person is the product of the circumstance and conditions applicable in the time and place of their maturation. Time and place A may favor the arising of a collective of people pron to produce compassion and while Time and place B produce predation.

Compare Sparta to Athens as an example. You may have choice to hold off taking a piss for a time but the only people with free will of a meaningful kind would be those who are not motivated by feelings they are unaware that they have. Most people are not even aware they are essentially asleep and that they are living in a dream.

So did you mean something other by lifestyle is a choice?

As to your second point. As a rational liberal who has figured out that the absolutes people normally call truth are all relative and rest on opinions only, it is a normal condition of your conscious awareness to assume criminality is the same, that no fundamental and universal standards apply.

That, of course, is because you have never subjected your perceptions of reality to the same scrutiny. Relativity depends on analysis and thought, decision making and rational past based on analysis. This is why the absolute evades you. You are using thought as a miners pick, searching in the light of your inner condition for something thought can never reach.

Enlightenment, if you will, is a transformational experience that can only happen when thought comes to an end, an experience the ego can’t will because it exists to save face. We would not have survived as children without it and it is there never to give up.

It has insulated you successfully enough from your suffering and you are content not to look. Perception is a product of need. You sure not driven by the Question, what is the Matrix because you are comfortable in your dream.

There is an absolute truth then, which transforms the dualities of relative thinking, and beyond the usual bigotry of unexamined assumptions. It is the the state of awareness that is when the ego disappears. It can’t be attained by ego effort. It happens when something causes the seeker to awaken. All I can say then is that it can happen to those who seek with need.

But everyone is driven, whether they know it or not, by it’s pull. This is why we unconsciously destroy the world. We lack a sense of need and seek the emotional vicarious substitute for need in the terror of apocalypse. Instead of the death of ego which brings rebirth, we seek the other one.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
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You seriously need to learn some comprehension skills, because once again, what I said went over your head. That or stop fucking trolling like a little bitch! You are ignoring everything being said by me, and by others and bypass what is actually being said in our posts and come back with rambling nonsense bullshit that has nothing to do with what was actually said.
My point was very simple. I never argued that a cure to mental illness would end gun deaths. I made the argument that gun deaths that are the product of mental illness would end if we did not have mentally I’ll people using guns to act out their illness.

I believe that the seeds of mental illness lie in the fact that as children the disciplinary techniques used to insure the acquisition of good behavior consisted of a good deal of physical and mental threat, and in particular, verbal abuse as put downs.

Notice when I say so people put me down. They think that by verbally attempting to abuse me they can stop me from reminding them of their pain. Good luck. The pain isn’t going away unfaced.

So I am not ignoring what you said other than that you are up in arms about a point I never intended and never made.

Only intentional violence to others by gun will decline if the degree of general mental health in the country improves. That is the area that really needs our attention, in my opinion. I am open to rational gun control and like others have opinions as to what that should mean. Nothing I would call rational would interfere with the right of self defense.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,527
15,406
136
My point was very simple. I never argued that a cure to mental illness would end gun deaths. I made the argument that gun deaths that are the product of mental illness would end if we did not have mentally I’ll people using guns to act out their illness.

I believe that the seeds of mental illness lie in the fact that as children the disciplinary techniques used to insure the acquisition of good behavior consisted of a good deal of physical and mental threat, and in particular, verbal abuse as put downs.

Notice when I say so people put me down. They think that by verbally attempting to abuse me they can stop me from reminding them of their pain. Good luck. The pain isn’t going away unfaced.

So I am not ignoring what you said other than that you are up in arms about a point I never intended and never made.

Only intentional violence to others by gun will decline if the degree of general mental health in the country improves. That is the area that really needs our attention, in my opinion. I am open to rational gun control and like others have opinions as to what that should mean. Nothing I would call rational would interfere with the right of self defense.

In other words, if the sun stops shining, rainbows would cease existing. Brilliant!

I’ve got a better one for you though; if guns were made to not be able to kill people, death from guns would be eliminated.




/facepalm
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,527
15,406
136
How about this piece of wisdom; if we make this planet uninhabitable we should find a planet we can MAKE habitable!

And I’ll leave you with this nugget:

Man doesn’t accomplish the impossible because they are smart, they accomplish the impossible because they are too stupid to do it the easy way.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
126
In other words, if the sun stops shining, rainbows would cease existing. Brilliant!

I’ve got a better one for you though; if guns were made to not be able to kill people, death from guns would be eliminated.




/facepalm
As my Father used to say, "If a frog didn't have any hind legs he's bump his butt off."

What I said was that is we focus on mental health education, the teaching of real psychological widom, a beginning could be made in improving the psychological health of our people. One of the side benefits of this would be that the number of mental cases bent of killing others and choosing to use guns to do so would decline. This kind of decline would represent treating the real source of gun violence but would also end the comforting stupidity that most people pretend to, that there is nothing really wrong with them. They are right, but they do don't know they don't really believe that at a feeling level. What we feel is our deepest truth, what we really believe and may not know that we do. The elucidation of unconscious motivation in psychology has demonstrated that in the West. It has been know for millennia elsewhere.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,231
6,338
126
How about this piece of wisdom; if we make this planet uninhabitable we should find a planet we can MAKE habitable!

And I’ll leave you with this nugget:

Man doesn’t accomplish the impossible because they are smart, they accomplish the impossible because they are too stupid to do it the easy way.
For myself I found that laziness was the mother of invention.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,959
2,285
136
Right Wingers: It's the fault of mental health!

Also Right Wingers: We saved money by cutting mental health treatments!