Gorbachev: We all lost the Cold War

[BaliBabyDoc]

Bloatware gone cable aka MSNBC

Reagan, said Gorbachev, 73, was "an extraordinary political leader" who decided "to be a peacemaker" at just the right moment -- the moment when Gorbachev had come to power in Moscow. He, too, wanted to be a peacemaker, so "our interests coincided."
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But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? "That's not serious," Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. "I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion," he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. "We only won when the Cold War ended."

I think Gorby may be giving himself too much credit as well . . .

 

[3chordcharlie]

Gorbachev was a real-live Communist who actually loved his country enough to put it's future and recovery ahead of his ideals by supporting elections and trying to ensure a smooth transition to a democratic Russia, even though he would have preferred a successful communist state. He was able to realize and accept that an election was the best thing for his country. I think he deserves a fair bit of credit...

 

[Infohawk]

This undermines a lot of conservatives' arguments about Reagan. In the past week we heard he intimidated the Soviet Union and Gorby. That may have been a factor but let's face it, the Soviet Union was disbanded from the inside. Anyway, a lot of conservatives also pointed to Gorby as proof that Reagan won it. Here we, have it- he doesn't agree with the conservatives about being scared into submission.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Gorbachev was the only person that really deserves credit for ending the Cold War. He tried to do make things better slowly he saw roadblocks, when he saw the roadblocks in his way... he decided to reform the whole system.

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
This undermines a lot of conservatives' arguments about Reagan. In the past week we heard he intimidated the Soviet Union and Gorby. That may have been a factor but let's face it, the Soviet Union was disbanded from the inside. Anyway, a lot of conservatives also pointed to Gorby as proof that Reagan won it. Here we, have it- he doesn't agree with the conservatives about being scared into submission.

Did you expect Gorbachev to say he was intimidated? Reagan and Thatcher through word and deed DEMONSTRATED that they meant business. They called the communist Soviet Union what it truly was- an evil empire.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Gorbachev was the only person that really deserves credit for ending the Cold War. He tried to do make things better slowly he saw roadblocks, when he saw the roadblocks in his way... he decided to reform the whole system.

I disagree I think you can point to vanguard figures like Walesa, the Pope, and certainly Gorbachev (with some assistance from Western powers like Reagan/Thatcher) but literally MILLIONS of people throughout the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc pretty much collectively said, "damn you guys sux!"

Did you expect Gorbachev to say he was intimidated? Reagan and Thatcher through word and deed DEMONSTRATED that they meant business. They called the communist Soviet Union what it truly was- an evil empire.

Gorbachev literally stared down his own hardliners . . . I seriously doubt the Iron Wench or B-actor actually intimidated him. The truth is that the Soviet Union was collapsing under the weight of an inefficient empire built upon promises to the people that were rarely kept. MAD worked well before Reagan or Gorbachev. The difference during the 80s is that the US and USSR decided to compete by trying to become the global power that could blow up the world "x" number of times moreso than the opposition. It was idiotic and we are still paying for the financial and human costs . . . not to mention all those nukes, nuclear material, and nuclear know-how floating around the world.

Communism in and of itself was never evil. It's always a matter of how leadership chooses to exert its will. Any society (even capitalist/mixed market . . . allegedly democratic) runs the risk of despotism if the leadership imposes rule instead of ruling by consent of the massess. It's particularly problematic when leadership not only makes up rules as they go along but rarely applies those rules to itself.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Bloatware gone cable aka MSNBC

Reagan, said Gorbachev, 73, was "an extraordinary political leader" who decided "to be a peacemaker" at just the right moment -- the moment when Gorbachev had come to power in Moscow. He, too, wanted to be a peacemaker, so "our interests coincided."
---
But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? "That's not serious," Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. "I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion," he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. "We only won when the Cold War ended."

I think Gorby may be giving himself too much credit as well . . .

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Remember, the communists loved pacifists up until the point they put the bullet in the head of the pacifist and thrown them in the mass grave.

 

[MAW1082]

The Cold War ended with a military coup in Moscow. Soviet tanks surrounded the parliament building. Reagan did not defeat the Soviet Union, it actually collapsed from the inside.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The Cold War ended with a military coup in Moscow. Soviet tanks surrounded the parliament building. Reagan did not defeat the Soviet Union, it actually collapsed from the inside.

Keep trying to convince yourself that....

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Yep the Solidarity movement would have crumbled. The Soviets would have prevailed in Afghanistan (you know the place we are currently losing). Iran would have defeated Iraq . . . hmm. And the Pope would have endorsed the Kremlin. All likely outcomes of Jimmy Carter in the White House.:roll:

Geroge Lucas had a greater effect on the collapse of the Soviet Union than SDI.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Yep the Solidarity movement would have crumbled. The Soviets would have prevailed in Afghanistan (you know the place we are currently losing). Iran would have defeated Iraq . . . hmm. And the Pope would have endorsed the Kremlin. All likely outcomes of Jimmy Carter in the White House.:roll:

Geroge Lucas had a greater effect on the collapse of the Soviet Union than SDI.

Reagan never was willing to remove SDI from negotiation table.

Soviet Union couldnt keep up financially.

It didnt need to be real as long as Reagan could make Gorby think it was real.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Yep the Solidarity movement would have crumbled. The Soviets would have prevailed in Afghanistan (you know the place we are currently losing). Iran would have defeated Iraq . . . hmm. And the Pope would have endorsed the Kremlin. All likely outcomes of Jimmy Carter in the White House.:roll:

Geroge Lucas had a greater effect on the collapse of the Soviet Union than SDI.

Reagan never was willing to remove SDI from negotiation table.

Soviet Union couldnt keep up financially.

It didnt need to be real as long as Reagan could make Gorby think it was real.

"Reagan's Star Wars project did not bankrupt the Soviet Union into reform, as his admirers claim. In repeated statements as well as his budget allocations Gorbachev made it clear Moscow would not bother to match a dubious weapons system which could not give Washington "first-strike capability" for at least another 15 years, if ever.

The Soviet Union imploded for internal reasons, not least the erratic way Gorbachev reacted to the contradictory processes set in motion by his own reforms. Reagan was merely an uncomprehending bystander. His acceptance in his second term of detente was a u-turn which millions of peace activists in Europe had been demanding.

It was detente that made the end of the cold war possible, and without Reagan's blind anti-communism it could have come at least four years earlier."


He lied and cheated in the name of anti-communism

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Yep the Solidarity movement would have crumbled. The Soviets would have prevailed in Afghanistan (you know the place we are currently losing). Iran would have defeated Iraq . . . hmm. And the Pope would have endorsed the Kremlin. All likely outcomes of Jimmy Carter in the White House.:roll:

Geroge Lucas had a greater effect on the collapse of the Soviet Union than SDI.

Reagan never was willing to remove SDI from negotiation table.

Soviet Union couldnt keep up financially.

It didnt need to be real as long as Reagan could make Gorby think it was real.

Dude, their spies were better than out spies. Even a dit wad that finished last in his Peace, War, and Defense/modern physics class would realize SDI was not a practical defense against a nuclear attack. In fact, it would be of little use against a limited nuclear strike.

The Soviet Union couldn't keep up financially b/c it was a poorly run economy. From a "bang per buck" perspective they did almost as much with far less in financial resources. You could remove virtually all of the arms race and proxy wars of the 70s and 80s but the Soviet Union would still be a relic by now. Vietnam, North Korea, and Cuba survive b/c they have no dreams of empire . . . they just want to exist. The US has been trying to choke Cuba for decades to no avail from Bay of Pigs to trying to kill Castro. What do we have to show for it? A dysfunctional foreign policy . . . and Florida elections bending to whims of people who still speak ESL.

Any decent student of history should give Reagan his due for contributing to the fall of the Soviet Empire. But his role . . . just like his films . . . was largely supportive . . . not lead.

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

If Jimmy Carter had been re-elected communism would have continued to spread...there would have been no arms build up and no star wars program that caused the Soviet Union to fold their cards.

Yep the Solidarity movement would have crumbled. The Soviets would have prevailed in Afghanistan (you know the place we are currently losing). Iran would have defeated Iraq . . . hmm. And the Pope would have endorsed the Kremlin. All likely outcomes of Jimmy Carter in the White House.:roll:

Geroge Lucas had a greater effect on the collapse of the Soviet Union than SDI.

That's funny, Lech Walesa credited Reagan for helping to inspire the Solidarity Movement he lead in Poland.

 

[SuperTool]

Does anyone really think that Gorbachev was more intimidated by Reagan than he was by the USSR hardliners and the KGB, who could have his @ss, and would have if they hadn't waited too long.