Gorbachev blasts American 'imperialism'

[JEDIYoda]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...re_eu/russia_gorbachev

MOSCOW - Former President Mikhail Gorbachev said Friday that the fall of the Soviet Union, which he helped bring about, ushered in an era of U.S. imperialism responsible for many of the world's gravest problems.

Well maybe not many of the world`s gravest problems....but over all Gorbachev is correct!!
Hopefully we elect somebody whose can reverse the damages of the past administration!!

Peace!!

 

[Deudalus]

What a wonderful post.

I wish I could refute it but honestly the Russians do know something about imperialism when they see it dont they?

This is almost as ironic as Al Gore flying around in his private jet and wracking up 35,000 a year power bills trying to sell me "carbon tickets".

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
What a wonderful post.

I wish I could refute it but honestly the Russians do know something about imperialism when they see it dont they?

This is almost as ironic as Al Gore flying around in his private jet and wracking up 35,000 a year power bills trying to sell me "carbon tickets".

It's different because Gore is a hypocritical douche, but at the moment Russia is being pretty low-key, which it is saying the US is not being, and which of course it's entirely correct about.

BTW, didn't read the article; just going based on topic heading.

Anyway, it takes a crack head to know one. This is why so many interventionists are recovered drug addicts themselves. Maybe Russia is trying to play that role

 

[chucky2]

This is the pot calling the kettle black really...

...had the USSR not collapsed in on itself, it would be doing the exact same thing the US is doing, except w/o any of the good intentions.

Move along, nothing to see here...

Chuck

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: chucky2
This is the pot calling the kettle black really...

...had the USSR not collapsed in on itself, it would be doing the exact same thing the US is doing, except w/o any of the good intentions.

Move along, nothing to see here...

Chuck

Actually, since Gorbachev helped bring the Soviet empire down i'd say that he has a say in this for the obvious reason that he was the end of Soviet imperialism.

So actually it's NOT an argument that you can use pot and kettle in.

Besides "whine, waaah, they would have done it too" isn't really much of an argument even if it had been true.

Gorbachev is right, you know.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Actually, since Gorbachev helped bring the Soviet empire down i'd say that he has a say in this for the obvious reason that he was the end of Soviet imperialism.

So actually it's NOT an argument that you can use pot and kettle in.

Besides "whine, waaah, they would have done it too" isn't really much of an argument even if it had been true.

Gorbachev is right, you know.

From a thriving USSR perspective, which was pre-Gorby, this is pot calling kettle black.

Gorby didn't have the thriving USSR, he had broke USSR, so there was no real way short of large military operations to be imperialistic USSR.

Don't think for a second had the USSR not been broke, and the US been there as the counter in Europe, that the USSR would have remained at end of WWII borders...

While I don't agree the US is "imperialistic", I do agree we've become 911 for the world.

Really we should just help the world out absolutely not at all, they should go to the UN, World Bank, etc. for help.

Then when billions have been killed and EU is no more, we can just deal with whoever is left. Much simpler IMHO.

Chuck

 

[dmcowen674]

Ex-Soviet leader Gorbachev blames U.S. for 'global disarray'

=======================================
No further words required unlike the drivel spewing from resident Administration shills.

 

[Genx87]

Imperialism, interesting. Wonder if Gorbi still collects a check from one of our fine state universities. Believe it is Oregon or Oregon State that had\have him on as a professor.

 

[daveshel]

He's right, although he may be motivated more by jealousy that anything else.

 

[theeedude]

We ushered as many problems for ourselves as we did the rest of the world. Russians, Germans and French are laughing at us in Iraq. I remember when the US was laughing at them for telling us not to go in. Freedom fries anyone?
So yeah, it's a problem that we tried to push other countries around, but it seems to be a problem that is solving itself, doesn't really require particular action by Russia or others. Look at NATO, for example. Russia is super paranoid about NATO expanding to its borders, but at the same time NATO is having problems with a bunch of medieval Taliban fighters, so how serious of a threat is it to Russia? Europe is soft, and so is America is getting soft too with all the troubles it's having even recruiting for Iraq. No way in hell the Europans and Americans would raise an Army to invade Russia. China is a much bigger threat to Russia than NATO could ever hope to be, yet Russia is almost completely ignoring and even playing into China's hands, selling them arms and technology.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...re_eu/russia_gorbachev

MOSCOW - Former President Mikhail Gorbachev said Friday that the fall of the Soviet Union, which he helped bring about, ushered in an era of U.S. imperialism responsible for many of the world's gravest problems.

This is an era of our imperialism? Yes, that is why we gave Iraq a government and will one day leave it to them. Is there any other example anywhere in the world?

The list of anything remotely relevant seems fairly limited, but even the supposed prime shining example is nothing more than a hallow attempt at spitting venomous hatred towards us with no actual substance behind it as an act of imperialism.

Our efforts in the Middle-East are of striking back when struck. Perhaps Russia would be more than happy if we relinquished that sense of sanity and self preservation.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp
We ushered as many problems for ourselves as we did the rest of the world. Russians, Germans and French are laughing at us in Iraq. I remember when the US was laughing at them for telling us not to go in. Freedom fries anyone?
So yeah, it's a problem that we tried to push other countries around, but it seems to be a problem that is solving itself, doesn't really require particular action by Russia or others. Look at NATO, for example. Russia is super paranoid about NATO expanding to its borders, but at the same time NATO is having problems with a bunch of medieval Taliban fighters, so how serious of a threat is it to Russia? Europe is soft, and so is America is getting soft too with all the troubles it's having even recruiting for Iraq. No way in hell the Europans and Americans would raise an Army to invade Russia. China is a much bigger threat to Russia than NATO could ever hope to be, yet Russia is almost completely ignoring and even playing into China's hands, selling them arms and technology.

Maybe you forgot the ols USSR didnt do any better in Afghanistan. The USSR was much more powerful than the current regime in Russia. Russia has the GPD os New Jersey for crying out loud. They can probably barely afford to field an army, much less dominate NATO.

I agree Europe is soft and so is the United States. We dont have the stomach for war, and never really have. Even in WWII there was pressure on the home front to get the thing done. That was the biggest threat in our history and people still wanted to get the eff out.

China will eventually require more resources and I believe Russia has those resources. Russia IMO wont fair well against China in a ground war.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...re_eu/russia_gorbachev

MOSCOW - Former President Mikhail Gorbachev said Friday that the fall of the Soviet Union, which he helped bring about, ushered in an era of U.S. imperialism responsible for many of the world's gravest problems.

This is an era of our imperialism? Yes, that is why we gave Iraq a government and will one day leave it to them. Is there any other example anywhere in the world?

The list of anything remotely relevant seems fairly limited, but even the supposed prime shining example is nothing more than a hallow attempt at spitting venomous hatred towards us with no actual substance behind it as an act of imperialism.

Our efforts in the Middle-East are of striking back when struck. Perhaps Russia would be more than happy if we relinquished that sense of sanity and self preservation.

Not true. Russia is enjoying us stuck in Iraq. It would be impossible for Russia to inflict the type of damage to our armed force readiness and morale that we are doing to ourselves in Iraq without suffering some dire consequences. On top of that creating instability in the region increases energy prices and actually helps Russia.
Of course you consider Iraq a case of sanity and self preservation, which is a bit of a stretch.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
We ushered as many problems for ourselves as we did the rest of the world. Russians, Germans and French are laughing at us in Iraq. I remember when the US was laughing at them for telling us not to go in. Freedom fries anyone?
So yeah, it's a problem that we tried to push other countries around, but it seems to be a problem that is solving itself, doesn't really require particular action by Russia or others. Look at NATO, for example. Russia is super paranoid about NATO expanding to its borders, but at the same time NATO is having problems with a bunch of medieval Taliban fighters, so how serious of a threat is it to Russia? Europe is soft, and so is America is getting soft too with all the troubles it's having even recruiting for Iraq. No way in hell the Europans and Americans would raise an Army to invade Russia. China is a much bigger threat to Russia than NATO could ever hope to be, yet Russia is almost completely ignoring and even playing into China's hands, selling them arms and technology.

Maybe you forgot the ols USSR didnt do any better in Afghanistan. The USSR was much more powerful than the current regime in Russia. Russia has the GPD os New Jersey for crying out loud. They can probably barely afford to field an army, much less dominate NATO.

I agree Europe is soft and so is the United States. We dont have the stomach for war, and never really have. Even in WWII there was pressure on the home front to get the thing done. That was the biggest threat in our history and people still wanted to get the eff out.

China will eventually require more resources and I believe Russia has those resources. Russia IMO wont fair well against China in a ground war.

No doubt USSR was deeply wounded by its involvement in Afghanistan, which is exactly why Russia is very happy to see us stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia definitely does not want a ground war with China, that's why it's still building a lot of nukes. I think long term, it's in both Russia's and NATO's interest to stop fighting each other and join hands to contain China. Russia is not a threat to NATO, and NATO is not a threat to Russia, because realistically, neither has what it takes to attack the other, it's a stalemate. But China is a threat to Russia, and China with Russian natural resources will be a threat to NATO, both economic, and security.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...re_eu/russia_gorbachev

MOSCOW - Former President Mikhail Gorbachev said Friday that the fall of the Soviet Union, which he helped bring about, ushered in an era of U.S. imperialism responsible for many of the world's gravest problems.

This is an era of our imperialism? Yes, that is why we gave Iraq a government and will one day leave it to them. Is there any other example anywhere in the world?

The list of anything remotely relevant seems fairly limited, but even the supposed prime shining example is nothing more than a hallow attempt at spitting venomous hatred towards us with no actual substance behind it as an act of imperialism.

Our efforts in the Middle-East are of striking back when struck. Perhaps Russia would be more than happy if we relinquished that sense of sanity and self preservation.

Ah, are you saying we were attacked by Iraq? Please link me to that amazing story, I'd love to see it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Actually, since Gorbachev helped bring the Soviet empire down i'd say that he has a say in this for the obvious reason that he was the end of Soviet imperialism.

So actually it's NOT an argument that you can use pot and kettle in.

Besides "whine, waaah, they would have done it too" isn't really much of an argument even if it had been true.

Gorbachev is right, you know.

From a thriving USSR perspective, which was pre-Gorby, this is pot calling kettle black.

Gorby didn't have the thriving USSR, he had broke USSR, so there was no real way short of large military operations to be imperialistic USSR.

Don't think for a second had the USSR not been broke, and the US been there as the counter in Europe, that the USSR would have remained at end of WWII borders...

While I don't agree the US is "imperialistic", I do agree we've become 911 for the world.

Really we should just help the world out absolutely not at all, they should go to the UN, World Bank, etc. for help.

Then when billions have been killed and EU is no more, we can just deal with whoever is left. Much simpler IMHO.

Chuck

Gorby put an end to the imperialism, therefore he can hardly be charged for anything that the CCCP ever did, that's why i am objecting to your pot and kettle argument and you know i'm right about that.

The UN hasn't always been the toothless tiger it is right now, in the 60's it had some real power and people were behind it.

Nowadays because of corruption and because of the lacking support of several countries who thought they could just say "jump" and the UN would jump it has turned into something that really really needs to be scrapped and redone from the ground up.

The US wants to control the world to act and do as the US wants or they'll threaten with military power, that is the very idea of the new kind of imperialism, do as we say or we'll make you, it's not about territory anymore, it's about resources. But as shown in Iraq, it's not as easy as you'd think and the US is losing more than you'll ever gain on it.

The EU will probably perish quite a few decades after the US, but nothing is forever.

You and me will be long gone before that happens.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: senseamp
We ushered as many problems for ourselves as we did the rest of the world. Russians, Germans and French are laughing at us in Iraq. I remember when the US was laughing at them for telling us not to go in. Freedom fries anyone?
So yeah, it's a problem that we tried to push other countries around, but it seems to be a problem that is solving itself, doesn't really require particular action by Russia or others. Look at NATO, for example. Russia is super paranoid about NATO expanding to its borders, but at the same time NATO is having problems with a bunch of medieval Taliban fighters, so how serious of a threat is it to Russia? Europe is soft, and so is America is getting soft too with all the troubles it's having even recruiting for Iraq. No way in hell the Europans and Americans would raise an Army to invade Russia. China is a much bigger threat to Russia than NATO could ever hope to be, yet Russia is almost completely ignoring and even playing into China's hands, selling them arms and technology.

No China and Russia are growing closer by the day. It is the natural reaction to the US 'take over the ME and the Caspian' plan. The US push for unilateralism is being counterbalanced by the rest of the world. The US is not popular in Europe anymore, even if the neocons are able to exploit anti russian sentiments in the former eastern bloc (like the Polish brothers in charge of Poland and Merkel the East German PM of Germany).

If the US wants to be on top of the world the rest of the world will unite as a counterbalance. That is already pushing China and Russia towards each other. Russia now has the largest oil and gas reserves on earth after Saudi Arabia is peaking and sooner or later Europe will have to turn to Russia for it's energy. The US hates the new Russia that is emerging as the energy hub of the world. That is why the neocons are trying to put pressure on Putin by having nukes on Russia's border. But Putin is calling that bet and raising the stakes.

If you pay attention to the news you see Hu and Putin are travelling all over the place tying up new business and energy deals. Putin in the former easter bloc, the -stan countries and Austria for example, Hu all over the place. China and Russia are using trade and diplomacy while the US is using the gun, the whip and bribes.

 

[theeedude]

Yeah, but just because China and Russia are getting closer now, doesn't mean it's in Russia's best interest. USSR and Germany were getting closer before Hitler invaded and killed 25 Million Soviets too.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Actually, Russia has far more business with the EU countries than it does with China so the analysis that China and Russia are growing closer is plain false.

It's in their own best interests of course, pretty much every country that is on the border of Russia is an EU country now.

I would have loved it if the EU and the US could have grown closer but for some reason that isn't likely to happen in a while.

 

[jpeyton]

The US is invading Russia's sphere of influence when we have no business being there.

I'm glad other superpowers are standing up to America's imperialism.

 

[ProfJohn]

The idea that Gorbachev ?helped? bring about the fall of the Soviet Union is such a twisted statement that it bears little resemblance to reality.

Yes in a literal sense he did help bring about its fall, but that was not his goal. He was trying to save the Russian economy by opening it up some. His goal wasn?t to bring freedom to the people of Russia, but to ensure the continued survival of the communist government.

Despite the glowing view our media gives to him Gorbachev was a failure as a leader. Not that you can blame him for the failure of the Soviet Union, but he was the one in charge when it finally fell apart.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Actually, Russia has far more business with the EU countries than it does with China so the analysis that China and Russia are growing closer is plain false.

It's in their own best interests of course, pretty much every country that is on the border of Russia is an EU country now.

I would have loved it if the EU and the US could have grown closer but for some reason that isn't likely to happen in a while.

Not with the rabid neocons in charge.

Yes historically Russia and China have always been uneasy neighbours. That won't change over night. But they have started having joint military excersises and Hu and Putin go along well. They had a top meeting not too long ago that had a completely different atmosphere than when Hu and Putin went to Washington respectively. Hu was down right insulted by the Bushies and the Kennebunkport meeting was just weird. The US had to send Kissinger, Schultz and other heavy weights to Moscow to try and pick up things.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: chucky2
This is the pot calling the kettle black really...

...had the USSR not collapsed in on itself, it would be doing the exact same thing the US is doing, except w/o any of the good intentions.

Move along, nothing to see here...

Chuck

You're probably right, but that doesn't undermine the accuracy of a potential argument. I mean, if two serial killers get in a fight and one manages to win and puts the other in jail and the other is bitter, he can still rightfully call the other guy an active serial killer, right?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Actually, Russia has far more business with the EU countries than it does with China so the analysis that China and Russia are growing closer is plain false.

It's in their own best interests of course, pretty much every country that is on the border of Russia is an EU country now.

I would have loved it if the EU and the US could have grown closer but for some reason that isn't likely to happen in a while.

Not with the rabid neocons in charge.

Yes historically Russia and China have always been uneasy neighbours. That won't change over night. But they have started having joint military excersises and Hu and Putin go along well. They had a top meeting not too long ago that had a completely different atmosphere than when Hu and Putin went to Washington respectively. Hu was down right insulted by the Bushies and the Kennebunkport meeting was just weird. The US had to send Kissinger, Schultz and other heavy weights to Moscow to try and pick up things.

The current admin seem hellbent on distancing the US from the EU and living on old credentials, it doesn't work that way, for any country.

I'd say that Russia and China are as close as the US and SA at this time, but Putins days as a president are counted and despite the friendliness with China, Russia is still closer to the EU, the pipelines and the trade are really telling.

In less than a year the EU and Russia are supposed to have the biggest military cooperation excersise and while China isn't invited Israel is.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Actually, Russia has far more business with the EU countries than it does with China so the analysis that China and Russia are growing closer is plain false.

It's in their own best interests of course, pretty much every country that is on the border of Russia is an EU country now.

I would have loved it if the EU and the US could have grown closer but for some reason that isn't likely to happen in a while.

Not with the rabid neocons in charge.

Yes historically Russia and China have always been uneasy neighbours. That won't change over night. But they have started having joint military excersises and Hu and Putin go along well. They had a top meeting not too long ago that had a completely different atmosphere than when Hu and Putin went to Washington respectively. Hu was down right insulted by the Bushies and the Kennebunkport meeting was just weird. The US had to send Kissinger, Schultz and other heavy weights to Moscow to try and pick up things.

Read up on the Tatar Yoke or the Mongol invasions to get sense as to why Russians distrust the Chinese.

For over 200 years the Mongols and their Tartan brethren dominated the Russian people.