GOP in Alabama attempting to end all abortions and birth control

[nehalem256]

High horse? Having an objection to a mother killing her own child constitutes looking down my nose at people?

Which is utterly irrelevant to the larger abortion debate. I didn't bring up a single religious argument.

I'd like to hear an argument why a child must die to save it from it's own life. The nature of the judgment we are passing on this child, that we can decide on its behalf whether or not it is worthy of life, with it utterly unable to defend itself, is horrifying.

What is it about leftists using the unbelievable exceptions to the rule to define the rule?

How does society benefit from allowing mothers to kill their own children?

Because a large number of people who get abortions are people who are incapable of taking care of a child, which means that said costs are passed on to society.

Of course this doesnt really make an argument for the pro-choice position but for a literal pro-abortion position. Society has judged that 15 year olds are not capable of driving cars, but for some reason if a 15 year old girl gets pregnant liberals will fall over themselves worshipping whatever choice she makes :\

*note: I just want to make clear Atreus that I completely respect your position.

 

[soulcougher73]

Say hello to big government conservatism. I thought it was all about jobs??

It is all about jobs. Cheap ones in 3rd world countries so their shareholders can make more money. :'(

 

[HomerJS]

As an accused ultra-liberal I would like to know why conservatives continue to ignore the definition of pregnant in these debates?

 

[soulcougher73]

I'll admit that part of me wants to see Roe v. Wade overturned, but in the end I'm just not quite vindictive enough. I mean this is all that law is for anyway.

If Roe gets overturned, all that happens is that the matter is returned to the individual states to decide. Considering there's no way in hell that I'm ever going to live in a state where abortion is going to be banned, it wouldn't actually affect my life in any way. All that would happen is that these idiots in Alabama, etc. would reap the consequences of their awful social policies, while the rest of us laughed at them even more than we do now.

The only thing is that a lot of real people would be hurt by it, and having people's lives screwed up so that I can make fun of conservatives isn't really a good reason to want a law overturned.

Yeah im just picturing that movie Cider House Rules right now. Where it was illegal in Maine to have abortions but the women would go get back alley abortions anyways a lot of times resulting in their own death as well.

That sounds much better than just legalizing it and keeping it safe.

 

[kage69]

It is a sad fact that we are prepared to kill our own offspring to make our lives more suitable.

Yet we don't seem to have a problem killing other people and/or their offspring to protect our influence and economy.
I'll also submit that it's more suitable, more convenient, for many "pro-life" types to abandon this concern once said offspring have exited a vagina.

I'd be more apt to believe it if it were really "pro-life," and not mostly "pro-agenda."
If "pro-life" types were serious about it, they would be the biggest proponents of birth control and sex ed there is.




Meh. It's Alabama. I'll get back to you guys once I've located that huge pile of shock I left somewhere.

 

[Atreus21]

Because a large number of people who get abortions are people who are incapable of taking care of a child, which means that said costs are passed on to society.

Yes, and the alternative is that the child dies for the benefit of society. Typically you have to enlist in the armed forces for that privilege. Society doesn't come to your house and kill you for its benefit, although that did occur in some mid-20th-century nations I can think of.

Of course this doesnt really make an argument for the pro-choice position but for a literal pro-abortion position. Society has judged that 15 year olds are not capable of driving cars, but for some reason if a 15 year old girl gets pregnant liberals will fall over themselves worshipping whatever choice she makes :\

*note: I just want to make clear Atreus that I completely respect your position.

Tip o' the hat.

 

[Atreus21]

Yet we don't seem to have a problem killing other people and/or their offspring to protect our influence and economy.

Like whom?

I'll also submit that it's more suitable, more convenient, for many "pro-life" types to abandon this concern once said offspring have exited a vagina.

I see. So arguing that a mother ought not kill her own child gives her license to say, "Fine, if you don't want me to kill it, you take care of it." That's astonishing.

I'd be more apt to believe it if it were really "pro-life," and not mostly "pro-agenda."
If "pro-life" types were serious about it, they would be the biggest proponents of birth control and sex ed there is.

If people want to have sex, they should be prepared for the product which sex uniquely brings about. It's that simple.

 

[soulcougher73]

LOL. Dude get off your freaking high horse.

First of all there is such a thing as the separation of church and state. Laws should not be passed on religious doctrine. They should be passed on practicality. Abortion is a highly practical practice. Highly practical. The reasons cited for outlawing it are highly impractical.

If you can come up with a logical, practical argument why a 16 year old girl who is pregnant, poor, lives in a dangerous household with an abusive father shouldn't have access to an abortion, I'd like to hear it. But if you want to spout religious bigotry, go tell it to your pastor. Concerning the above case I can give a million reasons why society benefits from her having access to at least one abortion.

:thumbsup: Sometimes i wish we could just create 1 state where all the relgious nutters can go and allow them to create laws based on their religious ideology outside the Governments control. I have a feeling it would be a pretty unpopulated state after about 10 years when the hypocricy of do as i say, not as i do hits a bit too close to home

 

[soulcougher73]

If people want to have sex, they should be prepared for the product which sex uniquely brings about. It's that simple.

Maybe we can have people register with the government as pro-life or pro-choice. We will make abortions illegal, but said child will be randomly given to said pro-life supporter if a pro-choice person wishes to give them up for adoption. You want more children in the world you take care of them

That way you get to legislate your moral convictions of abortion onto others like a good Christian, but you also bear the brunt of your convictions.

Im going to pass this idea onto my congresscritter..be right back

 

[nehalem256]

Maybe we can have people register with the government as pro-life or pro-choice. We will make abortions illegal, but said child will be randomly given to said pro-life supporter if a pro-choice person wishes to give them up for adoption. You want more children in the world you take care of them

That way you get to legislate your moral convictions of abortion onto others like a good Christian, but you also bear the brunt of your convictions.

Im going to pass this idea onto my congresscritter..be right back

Love the idea, but it could easily extend to pro-choice people as well. If they want a 15 year old girl to have the choice to have a child she cannot support they should pay to sponsor her so that she has that choice.

We could call it the "Put Up or Shut Up" bill.

 

[soulcougher73]

Love the idea, but it could easily extend to pro-choice people as well. If they want a 15 year old girl to have the choice to have a child she cannot support they should pay to sponsor her so that she has that choice.

We could call it the "Put Up or Shut Up" bill.

Works for me. I even like the name of the bill. Wait..no..i cant agree with you on something. I take it back....moron :sneaky:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As an accused ultra-liberal I would like to know why conservatives continue to ignore the definition of pregnant in these debates?

This thread is a year old now. Why don't you update us on what factually happened to this legislation minus partisanship?

 

[soulcougher73]

This thread is a year old now. Why don't you update us on what factually happened to this legislation minus partisanship?

Bah i hate contributing to necro threads. I really need to pay more attention to OP posting dates. I assumed this was a current topic.

 

[Atreus21]

Maybe we can have people register with the government as pro-life or pro-choice. We will make abortions illegal, but said child will be randomly given to said pro-life supporter if a pro-choice person wishes to give them up for adoption. You want more children in the world you take care of them

Yeah, that's amazingly sick logic. If you're not prepared to care for the victim in perpetuity, you have no business decrying infanticide. A mother is about to kill her 2 year old. Someone tries to stop her. Your defense is that the person who intervenes should not be allowed to object unless he cares for the 2 year old. Amazing.

That way you get to legislate your moral convictions of abortion onto others like a good Christian, but you also bear the brunt of your convictions.

You guys keep bringing this up. I didn't once bring religious conviction into it.

 

[jackstar7]

How does preventing the medical procedure of abortion stop women from preventing the birth of a fetus?

All it does is remove the safest way we have developed.

 

[kage69]

Like whom?

The majority of pro-war religious social conservatives. Particularly in the South. I know far too many Southerners who were unperturbed by the images of blown apart Iraqi children. Apologies if you thought I was attributing that to you specifically.

I see. So arguing that a mother ought not kill her own child gives her license to say, "Fine, if you don't want me to kill it, you take care of it." That's astonishing.

Children are born, I'm talking about an unwanted fetus. Funny, you've just described adoption. Adoption is astonishing?
What I was specifically referring to was this penchant for the anti-choice crowd to fight methods that reduce the need for abortion, as well as the programs that would assist these mothers (usually poor) in thinking "I can do this."

If people want to have sex, they should be prepared for the product which sex uniquely brings about. It's that simple.

I'm not advocating doing away with responsibility, but I'm sorry it's not that simple. Do you really think 100% of women only have sex when they want to? Do you really think 100% of women can safely and successfully bring a fetus to term and give birth to a child?
Social conservatives need to wake up and realize they can't apply their 'black or white' world view to other people. That's simple.

 

[soulcougher73]

Yeah, that's amazingly sick logic. If you're not prepared to care for the victim in perpetuity, you have no business decrying infanticide. A mother is about to kill her 2 year old. Someone tries to stop her. Your defense is that the person who intervenes should not be allowed to object unless he cares for the 2 year old. Amazing.

What? Who said anything about killing a 2 year old?

 

[Atreus21]

The majority of pro-war religious social conservatives. Particularly in the South. I know far too many Southerners who were unperturbed by the images of blown apart Iraqi children. Apologies if you thought I was attributing that to you specifically.

Abortion is the calculated, premeditated killing of an innocent. Casualties of war, especially civilian casualties of war, are at worst no different than abortion, and at best accidental and unintended. In most cases, wars are conducted with the intent of minimizing civilian casualties. Abortion is conducted with the explicit intent of killing one's own child.

Children are born, I'm talking about an unwanted fetus. Funny, you've just described adoption. Adoption is astonishing?

Expecting someone who objects to murder to adopt the victim or shut up is indeed astonishing.

What I was specifically referring to was this penchant for the anti-choice crowd to fight methods that reduce the need for abortion, as well as the programs that would assist these mothers (usually poor) in thinking "I can do this."

I've nothing against helping mothers cope with single-motherhood. Abortion, however, is an unacceptable weapon in that arsenal.

I'm not advocating doing away with responsibility, but I'm sorry it's not that simple. Do you really think 100% of women only have sex when they want to?

No. For those who are raped, I pass no judgment on those who choose to abort.

Do you really think 100% of women can safely and successfully bring a fetus to term and give birth to a child?

No. That doesn't mean it's okay to kill someone because it will ease your pain.

Social conservatives need to wake up and realize they can't apply their 'black or white' world view to other people. That's simple.

Whenever someone is sticking to convictions, the easiest rejoinder is to accuse them of having a black and white view of the issue. No issue of our time is more clear than abortion when it is stripped of all its emotional appeals. It's black and white at its basis. It's only those who wish to obscure that who insist on seeing shades of gray where there exist none.

 

[OutHouse]

i dont live in Alabama so i dont really care.

 

[jackstar7]

A) For those who are raped, I pass no judgment on those who choose to abort.


B) It's black and white at its basis. It's only those who wish to obscure that who insist on seeing shades of gray where there exist none.

Can you reconcile A and B?

 

[Atreus21]

Can you reconcile A and B?

Okay you got me. Abortion isn't strictly black and white. It's the most black and white issue currently before us.

 

[Paratus]

No they don't. There are many birth control medicines that only stop fertilization. The easiest and most common of which is of course a condom. However, whether the medicines interfere with implantation as a side-effect is debatable, some do more than others. Some don't by design.

However, you're right, there are many common forms, especially today that specifically use both methods, preventing fertilization and preventing implantation of a fertilized ovum.

And yes, I can tell you as an ultra-anti-killing-the-unborn Conservative, that would definitely be my next step to outlaw anything that would kill a child in such an undeveloped stage, because a child does not deserve to die just because that child happens to be undeveloped. This has never been a choice issue, this has always been, "does a mother have the right to kill her own child" issue. The answer is obviously no even to ultra-Liberals like yourself. The only difference is you ignore the truth and lie to yourself about what abortion really is, we Conservatives don't.

Well speaking of ignoring the truth....

Would you leave a baby in a hot car with a 50% chance of death because you want something at Wal-Mart?

Would you play Russian roulette with 3 bullets chambered with your infant?
I'm guessing not.

So how do you rationalize the fact that simply by trying to have a baby upto 50% of the fertilized eggs, sorry babies, you and and your partner created are going to fail to implant and die just as if your partner had taken plan B?

I guess that's different though because you CHOSE to create a child, so what if a few babies have to die? Right? Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

So if you truly believe it's a child at conception then do the moral thing and CHOOSE never have children or admit to being as clueless as you accuse liberals of being.

 

[jackstar7]

It's the most black and white issue currently before us.

And...?

Are complexity and nuance enemies?

 

[Atreus21]

And...?

Are complexity and nuance enemies?

I don't understand.

There are two exceptions to the rule that abortion is always wrong: When the mother is raped, or the mother will die during birth. I can think of no other exceptions. For that reason the issue is not strictly black and white. But that's still pretty freaking black and white.

 

[jackstar7]

I don't understand.

There are two exceptions to the rule that abortion is always wrong: When the mother is raped, or the mother will die during birth. I can think of no other exceptions. For that reason the issue is not strictly black and white. But that's still pretty freaking black and white.

By 'black and white' do you mean you feel it should be resolved for everyone?

Also, I don't agree that abortion is always wrong as a rule. Lots of folks don't. So what's resolved for you still includes a lot more complexity that either you do not see or have chosen to dismiss.