Google tracks Android user's location even when location services are disabled

[Mike64]

The saying I heard somewhere regarding internet services was that "If something is free, the product is you." That applies to every company.

That certainly was always true, even if the hordes of then-hipster "fan-persons" kicking each other in the shins in their mad dash to wangle gmail "invites" didn't want to hear it about "cool" Google... (Back in their long-forgotten "Do No Evil"<j/k, gg> days...)

And it's not just "free" services anymore. Because it's, you know, totally unfair (in corporate/Republican-speak) that your ISP can't also monetize what they know about you despite the fact that you already overpay them for usually-poor service and, unlike "free" "on-the-Internet" services like Google and Facebook, you have absolutely no choice but to use their (often singular, monopolistic) services just to connect to the Internet at all.

 

[FIVR]

You said "Could you show me some evidence that when I turn off location services on my iPhone, that Apple stops using or storing my location data?"

I said they did that a few years ago.
Which is what that article showed. That Apple was logging and storing cell tower locations without the users permission. Which is exactly what you were complaining about Google doing.

Also "Apple has since repeatedly stated that all their data is anonymized", you cant really anonymize location data. If I see user 476 repeatedly goes to an adtess every night and a different one every weekday I have probably got your home and work address.

Sorry but all you found was evidence that in 2010 people who used iOS 4 had their location data stored for traffic prediction services. You failed to show that any such things occurs on modern IOS devices. There hasn't been an iOS device with iOS4 for sale in the US in the last 5 years. You also failed to show that they did the "same thing" as google and used that data to target people with ads.


Also, location data is already understood to be under a different set of regulations due to the necessity for using it for traffic prediction. Apple Maps would not work without it. The data is never attached to your specific ID or device or name and is never given to 3rd parties. All of this is completely different from what Google does.

Could you please show me some real evidence that Apple does the "same thing" as google, as you stated in your original post? Google stores all your data, tells you they don't, then gives that data to 3rd parties for $ and uses that data to target you and your friends with ads. I don't see a single piece of evidence that Apple does anything of the sort.

Good try on false equivocations though. If only you had found an article that had anything to do with modern tech, and not 2010 tech you might have sounded like you had a point.

 

[WelshBloke]

...

Do you have problems reading? Or are you trying to carry on five arguments at once?

Because I said something then backed up exactly what I said when challenged on it.

If you want to now try to argue a totally different point you should start a new debate.

 

[FIVR]

Do you have problems reading? Or are you trying to carry on five arguments at once?

Because I said something then backed up exactly what I said when challenged on it.

If you want to now try to argue a totally different point you should start a new debate.

You started the debate saying "Didn't Apple do the same thing?"

Then you complain when I ask for evidence of your claim.

Where is Apple using the data for ads? Where is the evidence that any modern iOS device does this? You have so far shown nothing but evidence that nearly a decade ago one OS used the data for unknown purposes. That doesn't support your claim.


Try again.

 

[WelshBloke]

You started the debate saying "Didn't Apple do the same thing?"

To this statement that you made...

"Could you show me some evidence that when I turn off location services on my iPhone, that Apple stops using or storing my location data?"

Also you left out the "years ago" bit of my quote!

Then you complain when I ask for evidence of your claim.

I didn't complain, I gave you a link supporting what I said.

Where is Apple using the data for ads? Where is the evidence that any modern iOS device does this? You have so far shown nothing but evidence that nearly a decade ago one OS used the data for unknown purposes. That doesn't support your claim.

None of those claims were in your statement at all when I said that Apple did the same thing years ago.

Try again.

No. I'm good thanks. This is the last time I'll reply to you. If you need clarification any more just reread the thread. Just wipe the froth off your chin first.

 

[FIVR]

To this statement that you made...

"Could you show me some evidence that when I turn off location services on my iPhone, that Apple stops using or storing my location data?"

Also you left out the "years ago" bit of my quote!

So you admit that you started the whole debate with the supposition that Apple did the "same thing", and yet....

I didn't complain, I gave you a link supporting what I said.



None of those claims were in your statement at all when I said that Apple did the same thing years ago.





No. I'm good thanks. This is the last time I'll reply to you. If you need clarification any more just reread the thread. Just wipe the froth off your chin first.

Excuses, excuses. Let's see the same thing. I'm not going to argue with you about your own specific special instance where Apple did something sort of similar long ago. In case you didn't notice - this is a thread about Google using location data for targeted ads. If you don't like the topic of the thread due to your own frothing hate of Apple, then by all means PLEASE don't post in it. Good riddance.

I agree this should be a thread about Google's vs. Apple's data collection. However, it is turning into Apple vs. Android thread, with plenty of unneccesary back-handed, loaded insults. Keep the discussion on data collection.
Usandthem

 

[KeithP]

I'm such a loser

You could have saved quite a bit of typing by just going with that.

-KeithP

 

[FIVR]

I am not saying that Apple is better than Google, that is not my argument. This is about data collection and violation of user and customer trust. If Apple violated their privacy agreements in the past then that was a bad thing to do and AFAIK they rectified that situation and I hope that when they made their commitment to user privacy in 2013 they were telling the truth. So far it appears that they are.


What I have seen in this thread is two arguments given by a large group of members:

1. That privacy is NEVER guaranteed and as such, anybody using any device should assume they are being spied on at all times and act accordingly. If you don't want to be spied on then go live in a log cabin in the mountains like Kaczynski.

2. That Apple/others "do the same thing" and thus, Google is excused from any responsibility to user privacy or its own agreements and statements about the functionality of its devices and operating system


Both arguments are severely flawed. The former is conspiracy theory paranoia used to dismiss privacy itself as a myth, and the latter is easily reduced to pure "whataboutism". Just because other companies violate customer rights, doesn't mean Google should be excused for doing the same.


Can anyone here present me with a good argument for why anyone who values their privacy should use an Android device? Or why Google should not be punished for these violations and lies?

 

[MrSquished]

You're just an arrogant Apple fanboy and nobody likes you. That's all.




Unfortunately you did not heed the mods warning above.
No "fanboy" name calling allowed.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[FIVR]

You're just an arrogant Apple fanboy and nobody likes you. That's all.

Lol. I don't join forums to "get people to like me". I feel sorry for you if that's why you're here. I hope you make lots more friends.


Anyway, what do you think of Google storing your location data and using it to make money on ads without your consent? Do you think that is a good policy?


Should Google be allowed to spy on its users? Should they be excused for doing so because others do it?

 

[esquared]

Keep on the topic and without name calling or this thread will be locked.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[John Connor]

Marketing in any form is based on user data metrics. Whether it be Google or Apple, each share in that guilt. Ask Mark Zuckerberg. With Winblows 10, they've effectively turned YOU into the cash cow.

 

[FIVR]

Marketing in any form is based on user data metrics. Whether it be Google or Apple, each share in that guilt. Ask Mark Zuckerberg. With Winblows 10, they've effectively turned YOU into the cash cow.

I agree that if Apple or Google violate privacy agreements, they are both at fault. However, I believe you are introducing "both sides" into the conversation in an effort to portray the problem as somehow equally affecting both Google and Apple users. That is not the case. Apple has repeatedly made a commitment to user privacy while Google has not. Apple has even created entire new technologies (touchID, ad blocking) that so far have not been fully integrated by their competitors. There are dozens of articles online that point this out, here are just a couple:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...tore-mac-ipad-ios-macos-updates-a7970546.html

http://time.com/4261796/tim-cook-transcript/


Apple has even gone to bat against the whole US government in court to protect its user's privacy.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/03/technology/apple-iphone-fbi-fight-explained.html

When has Google done the same? They are not even close to comparable. Google gladly rolled over for the US government and never spent a dime in court to fight James Comey's quest to get into every cellphone in America, probably because Google was giving away its users data to the FBI for years.

So, in light of their vastly inferior privacy policies and repeated violations of user trust - How should Google be punished for their recent violations of their own agreements with users? Should people stop using android phones?

 

[neuronton]

OP maker : Help me and others understand from what you write. This entire thread from the OP to here has had every reply by the OP creator only advertise for the company Apple specifically. The thread history comments and the threads topic and subject have nothing to do with what the OP creator obviously is doing and has subjected everyone here to, despite the terms of service being violated, and specific advertisement including links supporting promotion without disregard and it needs to be called out for what it is and what is wrong. This is obviously undeserving of content creation because the OP has shown every trace of the need to be silenced from forums and I'm going there and submitting for your approval the above post as proof alone that those terms questioned were violated but it does go further of course in any actual application of value there is not a shred of any logical reason to post promotion of products versus the news worthiness of the topic. How about them Apples.

 

[UsandThem]

First of all, I'm writing this as a personal opinion, and not as a mod, so it's not bolded.

I think it is fairly obvious the OP likes Apple. That's perfectly fine to be a fan as long you are not attacking others. On these forums there are fans of Intel, Apple, AMD, Nvidia, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, EVGA, Corsair, Seasonic, Samsung, Google, etc. This is perfectly fine. I am not a big fan of MSI motherboards, but I can say that as long as I am not personally attacking or insulting anybody. Are you a big fan of MSI motherboards, but think Asrock boards are horrible? Great! Show me RMA and overall sale statistics if you want to discuss it.

Now, I am a long-time Android user, educated, and not poor. I've used Apple products before, and they are ok. I'm just not an Apple guy. However, the topic of this thread is about invasion of privacy and lack of transparency. Some people care about that, and some could care less. If you are compelled enough to comment in this thread because you believe the OP is wrong it what he claims, prove it by showing legitimate articles that prove your counter-argument. You don't get to present your side by shutting down the opposing side's viewpoint.

My .02

And to keep this on topic as requested earlier, I believe that any company that collects or sells user data without notifying the user in writing, with an option to opt out or cancel the service is a very bad practice, and if Google is doing this, the FTC should look into it. I do care about my privacy, and like to at least be aware of it if I do consent to it. This will be my only personal comment in this thread, so if you disagree with my statement, prove me wrong with legitimate articles or data.

 

[FIVR]

First of all, I'm writing this as a personal opinion, and not as a mod, so it's not bolded.

I think it is fairly obvious the OP likes Apple. That's perfectly fine to be a fan as long you are not attacking others. On these forums there are fans of Intel, Apple, AMD, Nvidia, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, EVGA, Corsair, Seasonic, Samsung, Google, etc. This is perfectly fine. I am not a big fan of MSI motherboards, but I can say that as long as I am not personally attacking or insulting anybody. Are you a big fan of MSI motherboards, but think Asrock boards are horrible? Great! Show me RMA and overall sale statistics if you want to discuss it.

Now, I am a long-time Android user, educated, and not poor. I've used Apple products before, and they are ok. I'm just not an Apple guy. However, the topic of this thread is about invasion of privacy and lack of transparency. Some people care about that, and some could care less. If you are compelled enough to comment in this thread because you believe the OP is wrong it what he claims, prove it by showing legitimate articles that prove your counter-argument. You don't get to present your side by shutting down the opposing side's viewpoint.

My .02

And to keep this on topic as requested earlier, I believe that any company that collects or sells user data without notifying the user in writing, with an option to opt out or cancel the service is a very bad practice, and if Google is doing this, the FTC should look into it. I do care about my privacy, and like to at least be aware of it if I do consent to it. This will be my only personal comment in this thread, so if you disagree with my statement, prove me wrong with legitimate articles or data.

I feel that Apple has taken a much better approach to consumer privacy rights than Google. Yes, I do like Apple products... but I would reconsider using them if they had similar policies to what Google seems to be employing with android. I don't understand why so many people here seem hell-bent on getting me infracted or banned because I don't like the same mobile OS as they do.


I don't know what can really be done to change Google's policies about data collection while they maintain current leadership. Eric Schmidt has repeatedly stated that user privacy is not his concern. See here:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/google-ceo-eric-schmidt-dismisses-privacy

I think a change of leadership is actually in order here. Alphabet/Google could be a leader in the introduction of encryption and privacy features in android if they would get rid of Eric Schmidt and his Orwellian attitude towards user privacy.

 

[UsandThem]

I feel that Apple has taken a much better approach to consumer privacy rights than Google. Yes, I do like Apple products... but I would reconsider using them if they had similar policies to what Google seems to be employing with android. I don't understand why so many people here seem hell-bent on getting me infracted or banned because I don't like the same mobile OS as they do.

I think it's not so much your claim, but your rather "colorful" descriptions and add-ons.

Now I might be in the minority here, but I also believe that under the right circumstances (like the recent attacks), Apple should be forced unlock the phones for federal agencies. Now this is a double-edged sword because Apple really shouts from the mountaintops about user privacy, and such a key could be abused. I'm just glad as a kid I grew up in a world where communication between friends was done on walkie-talkies, and I didn't have to worry about who was collecting what on me. I think if a person uses any digital device or service, they lose most, if not all of their privacy. For example, Amazon with all their devices probably knows when I get out of bed, eat, do laundry, and take a shower.

 

[FIVR]

I think it's not so much your claim, but your rather "colorful" descriptions and add-ons.

Now I might be in the minority here, but I also believe that under the right circumstances (like the recent attacks), Apple should be forced unlock the phones for federal agencies. Now this is a double-edged sword because Apple really shouts from the mountaintops about user privacy, and such a key could be abused. I'm just glad as a kid I grew up in a world where communication between friends was done on walkie-talkies, and I didn't have to worry about who was collecting what on me. I think if a person uses any digital device or service, they lose most, if not all of their privacy. For example, Amazon with all their devices probably knows when I get out of bed, eat, do laundry, and take a shower.

WRT the unlocking of phones for federal agencies - They have lots of other options than backdooring the phone. There are exploits and if the FBI (or other federal agencies) were trying to get into a locked iPhone, for example the Texas church shooters iPhone, they could easily have brought the phone to his body and used his fingers to unlock it within the first 24 hours. If that doesn't succeed, they already have an Israeli company who previously unlocked the San Bernadino Shooter's iPhone and they probably can unlock another iPhone in a similar fashion.


My problem is the FBI and the US government seems to want to put the investigative burden onto tech companies at the cost of customer privacy. Tech companies should not be required to do legwork for the FBI, it is not their business to aid law enforcement. They are tech companies, not police departments or intelligence agencies. Google (and to a lesser extent Microsoft) have appeared to take the opposite stance to Apple and are advocating for backdoors (or at least, not advocating against them) into all software. That puts American companies at a severe disadvantage on the world market because other governments simply assume their software is compromised and thus do not use it. It also makes foreign software and hardware much more appealing to American consumers who value their privacy.

The FBI successfully prosecuted thousands of cases and protected the US for years without having backdoors into all software and devices. They should not be requiring thousands of man hours to be spent by workers at civilian companies to aid in their investigations merely because they are too lazy to implement policies that would allow them to gain access to suspect's data through normal investigative means. A simple rule where the body of a dead suspect should immediately be used to unlock all his devices using biometrics would solve literally every single case where the FBI has complained about a lack of access to an iPhone.

 

[MrSquished]

l

When has Google done the same? They are not even close to comparable. Google gladly rolled over for the US government and never spent a dime in court to fight James Comey's quest to get into every cellphone in America, probably because Google was giving away its users data to the FBI for years.

you are mostly conjecture frothing at the mouth bs assumptions. people have rebutted your claims in here already and you just run around dancing. it's getting more amusing though so keep on.

 

[zerogear]

Google is in the advertising business... If you expected otherwise, you're a bit naive. I trust Microsoft more than I do Google, as they are still in the software business.. For now.

 

[pete6032]

People need to stop complaining about everything. This thread is ridiculous.

No one is stopping you from using a flip phone.

OP is not interested in flip phones
This thread is about how evil Google is

 

[OutHouse]

EXACTLY!

Android phones should come with a price tag that says right beside the price "This is how many $ we will make selling your data for the 12 months this phone probably still works"

so should Apple.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/298...osoft-and-google-sell-you-to-advertisers.html

damn dude are you 16 or something? grow the *redacted*.

Personal attacks and profanity are not allowed in the technical forums.

Daveybrat
Admin

 

[esquared]

This thread had devolved into name calling and not even posting to the topic.

Thread is locked.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director