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Google may shut down operations in China

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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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deputc26, I'm sorry this again has nothing to do with morals. Google is RAPIDLY LOSING MARKET SHARE IN CHINA AND CAN'T COMPETE. Not to mention they are PAYING BAIDU TO LOSE BUSINESS TO BAIDU. Like I said before Google uses Baidu to access the "Great Firewall of China" and all the filters etc. Meaning they have some sort of contract that probably includes them paying or sharing profits with Baidu. So lets look at it like this you can't compete in a foreign market because the local offering is better than yours and the only way you do business in the foreign market is by teaming up with your competition.... That's why Google is leaving. They get to save face in the Western world by pointing their finger at "big bad China."

Call me bias all you want, at least I understand the real situation.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
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So they are going to miss out on 2 billion customers because of their principals.
Doesn't sounds like they are doing what is in the best interest of their share holders.
And this is what is wrong with the unrestrained corporate model without any checks from society.

Do you know Google's company motto?
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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And this is what is wrong with the unrestrained corporate model without any checks from society.

Do you know Google's company motto?
Believe what you want, this has nothing to do with "don't be evil." It has to do with the fact that Google just doesn't have a place in the market and is getting pushed out by their competition. They point the finger at "big bad China" because it looks better from a business perspective than "we just can't compete."
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
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If the 43% market share claim that deputc26 posted on page 2 is accurate, it would seem that isn't the case. I noticed you just completely ignored that, though.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Believe what you want, this has nothing to do with "don't be evil." It has to do with the fact that Google just doesn't have a place in the market and is getting pushed out by their competition. They point the finger at "big bad China" because it looks better from a business perspective than "we just can't compete."
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with your posts on this (I don't know but they are very plausible).

I was making a different point - about his argument. That the fact that no matter how evil a business activity is, the onlly thing that matters is the 'shareholders' profit'. That's the problem in general.

As for their motto, I didn't mean to apply it to this situation, but rather to note how it contrasts to the ethic he's supporting and which pervades our corporate culture.

The book and movie "The corporation" do great at showing the psychopathic structure.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
See, you're wront there, China isn't on the fucking RISE (on the RICE maybe).

They are experiencing a downturn as well as the rest of the world and when it turns upwards other nations will surpass them because then they won't have the ability to use our downturn.

China is a totalitarian state, a dictatorship where you can be hung if you disrespect your supervisor or deny him sex with your pre teen daughter, its a shithole of a nation where those who have own everything including the peoples rights.

It's not comparable to anything western and when this downturn ends it will still be a sheithole while we will pick them for everything they are worth, as we do every fucking time.
I think you're being a bit harsh on China, objectively speaking their morality isn't much different than where most other Asian countries were a few decades ago. It takes a while to westernize a culture.

FYI, China has a capitalistic economy. Their totalitarian policies in other areas doesn't negate or slow down their economic growth. The hope is that eventually the two merge and they realize that a capitalistic economy also requires a democracy. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened yet.
I've often said China is the epitome of the neo-punk fantasy. The corporation as the state. China is run as if it's one giant megacorp, which makes it very communist internally (almost complete command economy), and very capitalist externally. And it really isn't a very strange government at all, in a historical sense, it's just amazing they can hold it all together on such a large scale.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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If the 43% market share claim that deputc26 posted on page 2 is accurate, it would seem that isn't the case. I noticed you just completely ignored that, though.
Except they don't have 43% of the market share and every day Baidu gains more and more. Last I heard Baidu was rocking over 70% of the market share.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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I don't know if i mentioned this before but FUCK CHINA!

A totalitarian state where people are used, abused, tortured, raped and killed on a daily basis and if you have ANY rank in politics, that is A-OK.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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I think you're being a bit harsh on China, objectively speaking their morality isn't much different than where most other Asian countries were a few decades ago. It takes a while to westernize a culture.
Yeah, what was i thinking? That they shouldn't treat their people worse than their pets?

Fuck China, they avoided the revoution by torture and murder and now they have people thinking about money rather than their freedom.

I'm sorry but ok, if the people like that it's none of my business. In reality, i won't ever buy sheit from any company that deals with the Chinese.

So i have to skip the extremely high priced low quality clothes and shoes but the RAF supplies me with what i need anyway, made in Britain.
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
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deputc26, I'm sorry this again has nothing to do with morals. Google is RAPIDLY LOSING MARKET SHARE IN CHINA AND CAN'T COMPETE. Not to mention they are PAYING BAIDU TO LOSE BUSINESS TO BAIDU. Like I said before Google uses Baidu to access the "Great Firewall of China" and all the filters etc. Meaning they have some sort of contract that probably includes them paying or sharing profits with Baidu. So lets look at it like this you can't compete in a foreign market because the local offering is better than yours and the only way you do business in the foreign market is by teaming up with your competition.... That's why Google is leaving. They get to save face in the Western world by pointing their finger at "big bad China."

Call me bias all you want, at least I understand the real situation.
haha! for real dude? Google lost market share in 1H 2009 but more then made it back in 2H 2009. Check my links, or better yet do your own research. Your stubborn belief that altruism doesn't exist is fallacious. here is a link to googles filings with the SEC http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?action=getcompany&CIK=0001288776&owner=include

It is a conspiracy theory that Google is pulling out because they're loosing money (i.e. "for business reasons") which is highly ironic, the cynics are now generating conspiracy theories, lol :D.

They are pulling out because it is the right thing to do and they are so financially strong (22 billion in cash and cash equivalents in their latest 10-Q filing) that while China can hurt them it will not be a crippling blow like it would be to most companies (and countries).

Except they don't have 43% of the market share and every day Baidu gains more and more. Last I heard Baidu was rocking over 70% of the market share.
Source?

Edit: For the record China's economy *is* powered by capitalism, it was the injection of capitalist philosophy that lifted China from its economic dishevel starting last century and continuing (and yes they *are* rising, even last year they achieved 8% growth; whether or not america is falling is debatable, for the record I am from Canada). The Chinese are socialists drifting toward capitalism while "the west" consists largely of capitalists drifting toward socialism.
 
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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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... Just because Google makes hand over fist in money doesn't mean staying in China is a good idea in the long run. They are LOSING MARKET SHARE. Google hasn't had 20% or more of the market share since like 2006 bro. Search it Baidu has over 70% of the market share and now when Google pulls out they have like 15% and were losing market share rapidly. I'm not doing the research for you, but you're gravely mistaken if you think Google was even close to competing with Baidu in recent years. This is no "big bad China" thing this is a "holy shit we can't compete" thing.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
deputc26, I'm sorry this again has nothing to do with morals. Google is RAPIDLY LOSING MARKET SHARE IN CHINA AND CAN'T COMPETE. Not to mention they are PAYING BAIDU TO LOSE BUSINESS TO BAIDU. Like I said before Google uses Baidu to access the "Great Firewall of China" and all the filters etc. Meaning they have some sort of contract that probably includes them paying or sharing profits with Baidu. So lets look at it like this you can't compete in a foreign market because the local offering is better than yours and the only way you do business in the foreign market is by teaming up with your competition.... That's why Google is leaving. They get to save face in the Western world by pointing their finger at "big bad China."

Call me bias all you want, at least I understand the real situation.
You don't understand $hit.

On one hand you call Google leaving China all about business and nothing about moral. One the other hand you call Google pointing fingers save face even tho that's extremely bad for business and cut off any future access and business opportunity with China.

So why does Google do one thing all about business and the other thing all about face saving and nothing about business?

I don't know what makes you think you understand the real situation, because you are Chinese and you know Baidu? You wanna compare credentials? I work in an International organization dealing with Chinese government officials all day and I have an MBA degree and knows China economy and market inside out. Do you know how much money Google can make in China outside of search engine with thier piles of money and access to investment banks?

Google is just calling out Chinese government for what they are. Nothing about face saving, nothing about losing to Baidu. What they did is bad for their business, bad for their relationship with Chinese government (or any government wanna sensor their Internet cause they will now think twice for letting Google into their country)

It is about principle, plain and simple. Only someone fvcking baised like you cannot see it.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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You don't understand $hit.

On one hand you call Google leaving China all about business and nothing about moral. One the other hand you call Google pointing fingers save face even tho that's extremely bad for business and cut off any future access and business opportunity with China.

So why does Google do one thing all about business and the other thing all about face saving and nothing about business?

I don't know what makes you think you understand the real situation, because you are Chinese and you know Baidu? You wanna compare credentials? I work in an International organization dealing with Chinese government officials all day and I have an MBA degree and knows China economy and market inside out. Do you know how much money Google can make in China outside of search engine with thier piles of money and access to investment banks?

Google is just calling out Chinese government for what they are. Nothing about face saving, nothing about losing to Baidu. What they did is bad for their business, bad for their relationship with Chinese government (or any government wanna sensor their Internet cause they will now think twice for letting Google into their country)

It is about principle, plain and simple. Only someone fvcking baised like you cannot see it.
China is a fuckhole of a third world nation where saying anything against the power that is will earn you a death sentence, it's like Iran without the religion.

Fuck China.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
... Just because Google makes hand over fist in money doesn't mean staying in China is a good idea in the long run. They are LOSING MARKET SHARE. Google hasn't had 20% or more of the market share since like 2006 bro. Search it Baidu has over 70% of the market share and now when Google pulls out they have like 15% and were losing market share rapidly. I'm not doing the research for you, but you're gravely mistaken if you think Google was even close to competing with Baidu in recent years. This is no "big bad China" thing this is a "holy shit we can't compete" thing.
Your info appears to be outdated.

Google increased its share of the market during the second half of 2009 to 43% vs. Baidu's 56%
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
76
... Just because Google makes hand over fist in money doesn't mean staying in China is a good idea in the long run. They are LOSING MARKET SHARE. Google hasn't had 20% or more of the market share since like 2006 bro. Search it Baidu has over 70% of the market share and now when Google pulls out they have like 15% and were losing market share rapidly. I'm not doing the research for you, but you're gravely mistaken if you think Google was even close to competing with Baidu in recent years. This is no "big bad China" thing this is a "holy shit we can't compete" thing.
What are you on China's bankroll or something? We've been over this, Google is gaining not losing marketshare from WSJ today Google has doubled its market share in the last few years and now has more than 35 percent. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575002573024282764.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
How is pointing the finger at someone else who most people agree is "evil" a bad thing? Saying that China is working against them does help their business because it doesn't show them as incompetent and unable to penetrate a foreign market. If it's not their fault then it's Chinas and Google is still "good." Also what ar eyou guys talking about Google has 35% of the market share in China? I haven't read a single figure that high in recent years. Everything I've read about 2009 has them at 20% and dropping. How is it possible they have 35% when a simple search of Baidu's market share shows that it has 70%+ in 2009.

Baidu up to 74.1% in Q1 2009 - http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/06/01/chinese-search-giant-baidu-com-bidu-gains-more-market-share/

Google right around 20% in Q1 2009 - http://www.digitaleastasia.com/2009/06/12/google-losing-market-share-to-baidu-in-china/

Baidu hitting above 75% in Q2 - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-08/06/content_8535200.htm

The highest I've even read for Google in last year was them jumping up to something like 25% in Q4 or 2009 then quickly falling back off. The most searched term on Google.cn is Baidu. Google is leaving because they can't compete with a company they have to rely on.

No I'm not on China's bankroll, I wish I was though they got all the money after all and own our asses. My coworker/close friend/landlord is Chinese born and raised we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. I know get to hear quite a bit about what the goings on in China are from someone who actually owns and runs a business there.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,386
3
81
deputc26, I'm sorry this again has nothing to do with morals. Google is RAPIDLY LOSING MARKET SHARE IN CHINA AND CAN'T COMPETE. Not to mention they are PAYING BAIDU TO LOSE BUSINESS TO BAIDU. Like I said before Google uses Baidu to access the "Great Firewall of China" and all the filters etc. Meaning they have some sort of contract that probably includes them paying or sharing profits with Baidu. So lets look at it like this you can't compete in a foreign market because the local offering is better than yours and the only way you do business in the foreign market is by teaming up with your competition.... That's why Google is leaving. They get to save face in the Western world by pointing their finger at "big bad China."

Call me bias all you want, at least I understand the real situation.
interesting take
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,386
3
81
I wish I was though they got all the money after all and own our asses.
They don't own shit but IOUs and are trapped into buying more while we get free goodies for worthless paper. I'll take that deal every time.

PS
You think China can foreclose on us like a bank when we tell them to piss up a rope (inevitable) the second they stop returning our worthless dollars back to our treasury?

A lot of people don't understand money is just a construct - real power and wealth is assets and .mil to protect them.
 
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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
How is pointing the finger at someone else who most people agree is "evil" a bad thing? Saying that China is working against them does help their business because it doesn't show them as incompetent and unable to penetrate a foreign market. If it's not their fault then it's Chinas and Google is still "good." Also what ar eyou guys talking about Google has 35% of the market share in China? I haven't read a single figure that high in recent years. Everything I've read about 2009 has them at 20% and dropping. How is it possible they have 35% when a simple search of Baidu's market share shows that it has 70%+ in 2009.

Baidu up to 74.1% in Q1 2009 - http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/06/01/chinese-search-giant-baidu-com-bidu-gains-more-market-share/

Google right around 20% in Q1 2009 - http://www.digitaleastasia.com/2009/06/12/google-losing-market-share-to-baidu-in-china/

Baidu hitting above 75% in Q2 - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-08/06/content_8535200.htm

The highest I've even read for Google in last year was them jumping up to something like 25% in Q4 or 2009 then quickly falling back off. The most searched term on Google.cn is Baidu. Google is leaving because they can't compete with a company they have to rely on.

No I'm not on China's bankroll, I wish I was though they got all the money after all and own our asses. My coworker/close friend/landlord is Chinese born and raised we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. I know get to hear quite a bit about what the goings on in China are from someone who actually owns and runs a business there.
There have been links posted in response to your outdated numbers. The numbers for the end of last year show Google with a huge surge.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz0cYoQR3Yb
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
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I don't know where sfgate is getting that 45% number but it looks strikingly similar to the percentage of market share google has in the entire region...


http://www.digitaleastasia.com/2010/01/05/baidu-google-yahoo-and-bing-2009-was-a-battleground-in-chinese-search/

Within the region Google accounts for 44.1% of searches and was the the search market share leader in six of the markets (Australia, India, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand and Singapore.)
Region != China. If they are using that number, they are wrong.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
I don't know where sfgate is getting that 45% number but it looks strikingly similar to the percentage of market share google has in the entire region...


http://www.digitaleastasia.com/2010/01/05/baidu-google-yahoo-and-bing-2009-was-a-battleground-in-chinese-search/



Region != China. If they are using that number, they are wrong.
Again, you're relying on older data. The SFGate article is regarding data from the last half of the year. Your data is for the first half of the year despite the article being relatively recent.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
... that article is also from this year... how is that data old? it even talks about Q3 and later... so wtf are you talking about? Hell it even says in September Baidu was 63% in China which backs up some of those claims, but doesn't change the fact that Google later lost market share they gained and have in fact been losing market share overall for years.
 

little elvis

Senior member
Sep 8, 2005
227
0
0
... that article is also from this year... how is that data old? it even talks about Q3 and later... so wtf are you talking about? Hell it even says in September Baidu was 63% in China which backs up some of those claims, but doesn't change the fact that Google later lost market share they gained and have in fact been losing market share overall for years.
I guess it depends on which sources you believe... Statcounter is claiming Google was gaining market share throughout 2009 and ended the year at 43% share.

http://gs.statcounter.com/press/google-gained-market-share-in-china-in-last-six-months

And you do realize the stats you quoted (digital asia link) do not include data from public computers, mobile phones or pdas
 
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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
1
0
... that article is also from this year... how is that data old? it even talks about Q3 and later... so wtf are you talking about? Hell it even says in September Baidu was 63% in China which backs up some of those claims, but doesn't change the fact that Google later lost market share they gained and have in fact been losing market share overall for years.
Google has supposedly made severe advances in the last half of the year. Your article's most recent data is September, and much of it is older. It is missing October, November, December.

According to the other article, Google has increased its share quite dramatically, increasing to 43%. That most definitely changes the fact. Google has gained market share last year.

Also, your data is narrower. Like little elvis said, it excludes some sources, only considering ages 15+ at home or work locations. That doesn't necessarily mean Google's share would increase. Perhaps it would decrease when considering other factors.
 
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Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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They don't own shit but IOUs and are trapped into buying more while we get free goodies for worthless paper. I'll take that deal every time.

PS
You think China can foreclose on us like a bank when we tell them to piss up a rope (inevitable) the second they stop returning our worthless dollars back to our treasury?

A lot of people don't understand money is just a construct - real power and wealth is assets and .mil to protect them.
Well what do you know... we agree on something.
 

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