Good Morning Vietnam.
- Thread starter al981
- Start date
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
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If/when the fledgling governments of Afghanistan and Iraq collapse and give way to a new dictatorship or terrorist state, what then?
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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How clueless are you bamarcre and Doc Savage Fan, we can either politicize the Afghan war, in which case the predominant blame will fall on GWB&co and Dumsfeld. or we can look at the Afghan occupation with fresh eyes, realize its not the simple military problem it was assumed to be, and try some new approaches in an effort to win. But the new Afghan picture that has emerged, only recently occurred after Obama put in extra troops on the ground and sent them into the field and on the ground. And quite frankly its shocked almost everyone in Nato in the extent to which corrupt Afghan Government officials and the Taliban were deeply entrenched across at least 80% of the Afghan countryside.
We can't even assume the new general McCrystal is Obama's choice, McCrystal is certainly not a shrinking violet afraid to speak his mind, And in MHO, McCrystal is the first Nato general to at least start to get what its going to take to win in Afghanistan.
I will not debate the question that it may be too late, after all Nato has dug itself a very deep hole, but right now, just laying the problem at the feet of Obama is stupidity. Its going to take a long term American and Nato commitment to win, and without the American Congress and American people getting behind the effort, Afghanistan will inevitably fall to the Taliban and become a narco state.
In the grand scheme of things its irreverent regarding opinions on who lost Afghanistan, what matters is winning or losing, and starting to do the things that it takes to win.
As once again the American people learn to lesson that in an military occupation, we must either go big or stay at home. After trying an occupation on the cheap in Afghanistan, we
quite predictably flopped. As we failed to provide the good governance it takes to win Afghan hearts and minds.
We can't even assume the new general McCrystal is Obama's choice, McCrystal is certainly not a shrinking violet afraid to speak his mind, And in MHO, McCrystal is the first Nato general to at least start to get what its going to take to win in Afghanistan.
I will not debate the question that it may be too late, after all Nato has dug itself a very deep hole, but right now, just laying the problem at the feet of Obama is stupidity. Its going to take a long term American and Nato commitment to win, and without the American Congress and American people getting behind the effort, Afghanistan will inevitably fall to the Taliban and become a narco state.
In the grand scheme of things its irreverent regarding opinions on who lost Afghanistan, what matters is winning or losing, and starting to do the things that it takes to win.
As once again the American people learn to lesson that in an military occupation, we must either go big or stay at home. After trying an occupation on the cheap in Afghanistan, we
quite predictably flopped. As we failed to provide the good governance it takes to win Afghan hearts and minds.
bamacre
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,029
- 2
- 61
Afghanistan already has a dictatorship, we're simply keeping it in power to create "stability." Similar words could be said for Iraq.
In regards to terrorism, are you implying that we can prevent terrorist attacks by imposing our will at gunpoint overseas? That we can terrorize the terrorists? It simply won't work. We just create more hatred toward us. In order to prevent terrorism, we must acknowledge why it exists in the first place.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
We can ask if bamarcre is starting a flame war by ask the honest question of "Go big? What does that mean? Send in more troops that we don't have? Spend more money that we don't have? Kill more brown people over there so we don't have to deal with them at home?", but I for one do not thinks so.
But to partially answer the bamarce question, its maybe time to point out, that embedded in the military manuals of most nations that have experience with military occupations is that that it basically takes one ground troop per 50 in population to have a chance at running a successful military occupation. And the good ole USA is certainly no exception.
By that math, Afghanistan would take 620,000 Nato troops and Iraq would take 500,000. As we know, no where near that number were allocated for either, but for most of the first eight years Afghanistan limped along with only 72,000 total Nato troops. Sadly both the Afghan army and police are poorly trained and largely totally corrupt, so their numbers are more part of the problem rather than any solution.
As for Iraq, certain political concessions now keep violence fairly low, but the various Iraqi insurgencies are not only still present and better armed than ever before, and now they content themselves with looting Iraqi oil money. Sadly in Afghanistan where there is no oil to loot, corrupt elements of the Afghan government are now allied with the Taliban as both grow quietly rich on drug money.
Even if McCrystal gets his 40,000 extra troops, its still going to be 25% of what is needed, which in mind means , we can only save a part of Afghanistan for now, and then hope to build outward later.
But to partially answer the bamarce question, its maybe time to point out, that embedded in the military manuals of most nations that have experience with military occupations is that that it basically takes one ground troop per 50 in population to have a chance at running a successful military occupation. And the good ole USA is certainly no exception.
By that math, Afghanistan would take 620,000 Nato troops and Iraq would take 500,000. As we know, no where near that number were allocated for either, but for most of the first eight years Afghanistan limped along with only 72,000 total Nato troops. Sadly both the Afghan army and police are poorly trained and largely totally corrupt, so their numbers are more part of the problem rather than any solution.
As for Iraq, certain political concessions now keep violence fairly low, but the various Iraqi insurgencies are not only still present and better armed than ever before, and now they content themselves with looting Iraqi oil money. Sadly in Afghanistan where there is no oil to loot, corrupt elements of the Afghan government are now allied with the Taliban as both grow quietly rich on drug money.
Even if McCrystal gets his 40,000 extra troops, its still going to be 25% of what is needed, which in mind means , we can only save a part of Afghanistan for now, and then hope to build outward later.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It perhaps makes a good point about long term American interests, but not only do we want our own pipe lines, we somewhat seek to prevent Iran Building a pipe line through
Afghanistan and on to India to give a market for Iranian natural gas.
boomerang
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2000
- 18,883
- 641
- 126
On March 27th of this year, our president announced to the world A New Strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. We've been operating under that new strategy since. If things are going wrong, if things aren't going well, this administration has to bear the full burden.
The strategy of the Bush administration was left behind on that day. Obama has owned it ever since. The top position in this country is one that should be vied for and accepted only by persons who are willing to accept responsibility. Nine months into his term and the man is still blaming his predecessor. He needs to grow up. We should expect nothing less.
rudder
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2000
- 19,441
- 86
- 91
Kicking Al qaidas butt was one thing... but we have this country that is so corrupt and rural that there is no way they will ever effectively be able to have a central government. It will be impossible to kill all the bad guys without killing the ones you are trying to help. As soon as the U.S. leaves the Taliban would be right back. We have to make a choice as to whether we want to babysit this country for the next 100 years or be done with it.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
- 4,822
- 0
- 0
I can't make sense of the discourse on this topic, so my contribution is a cautionary one.
As MANY more troops and civilian advisers are going to be deploying to one of God's Own Hell Holes, it is becoming increasingly important that everyone prepares better than "The Young British Soldier" of Rudyard Kipling.
Everyone going to Afghanistan that is not a trained and experienced infantryman had better do their best to train up to that standard...
How to Prepare for a Deployment to Afghanistan
1. Sleep on a cot in the garage.
2. Replace the garage door with a curtain.
3. Six hours after you go to sleep, have your wife or girlfriend whip open the curtain, shine a flashlight in your eyes and mumble, "Sorry, wrong cot."
4. Renovate your bathroom. Hang a green plastic sheet down from the middle of your bathtub and move the showerhead down to chest level. Keep four inches of soapy cold water on the floor. Stop cleaning the toilet and pee everywhere but in the toilet itself. Leave two to three sheets of toilet paper. Or for best effect, remove it altogether. For a more realistic deployed bathroom experience, stop using your bathroom and use a neighbor's. Choose a neighbor who lives at least a quarter mile away.
5. When you take showers, wear flip-flops and keep the lights off.
6. Every time there is a thunderstorm, go sit in a wobbly rocking chair and dump dirt on your head.
7. Put lube oil in your humidifier instead of water and set it on "HIGH" for that tactical generator smell.
8. Don't watch TV except for movies in the middle of the night. Have your family vote on which movie to watch and then show a different one.
9. Leave a lawnmower running in your living room 24 hours a day for proper noise level.
10. Have the paperboy give you a haircut.
11. Once a week, blow compressed air up through your chimney making sure the wind carries the soot across and on to your neighbor's house. Laugh at him when he curses you.
12. Buy a trash compactor and only use it once a week. Store up garbage in the other side of your bathtub.
13. Wake up every night at midnight and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on a saltine cracker.
14. Make up your family menu a week ahead of time without looking in your food cabinets or refrigerator. Then serve some kind of meat in an unidentifiable sauce poured over noodles. Do this for every meal.
15. Set your alarm clock to go off at random times during the night. When it goes off, jump out of bed and get to the shower as fast as you can. Simulate there is no hot water by running out into your yard and breaking out the garden hose.
16. Once a month, take every major appliance completely apart and put it back together again.
17. Use 18 scoops of coffee per pot and allow it to sit for five or six hours before drinking.
18. Invite at least 185 people you don't really like because of their strange hygiene habits to come and visit for a couple of months. Exchange clothes with them.
19. Have a fluorescent lamp installed on the bottom of your coffee table and lie under it to read books.
20. Raise the thresholds and lower the top sills of your front and back doors so that you either trip over the threshold or hit your head on the sill every time you pass through one of them.
21. Keep a roll of toilet paper on your night stand and bring it to the bathroom with you. And bring your gun and a flashlight.
22. Go to the bathroom when you just have to pass gas, "just in case." Every time.
23. Announce to your family that they have mail, have them report to you as you stand outside your open garage door after supper and then say, "Sorry, it's for the other Smith."
24. Wash only 15 items of laundry per week. Roll up the semi-wet clean clothes in a ball. Place them in a cloth sack in the corner of the garage where the cat pees. After a week, unroll them and without ironing or removing the mildew, proudly wear them to professional meetings and family gatherings. Pretend you don't know what you look or smell like. Enthusiastically repeat the process for another week.
25. Go to the worst crime-infested place you can find, go heavily armed, wearing a flak jacket and a Kevlar helmet. Set up shop in a tent in a vacant lot. Announce to the residents that you are there to help them.
26. Eat a single M&M every Sunday and convince yourself it's for Malaria.
27. Demand each family member be limited to 10 minutes per week for a morale phone call. Enforce this with your teenage daughter.
28. Shoot a few bullet holes in the walls of your home for proper ambiance.
29. Sandbag the floor of your car to protect from mine blasts and fragmentation.
30. While traveling down roads in your car, stop at each overpass and culvert and inspect them for remotely detonated explosives before proceeding.
31. Fire off 50 cherry bombs simultaneously in your driveway at 3:00 a.m. When startled neighbors appear, tell them all is well, you are just registering mortars. Tell them plastic will make an acceptable substitute for their shattered windows.
32. Drink your milk and sodas warm.
33. Spread gravel throughout your house and yard.
34. Make your children clear their Super Soakers in a clearing barrel you placed outside the front door before they come in.
35. Make your family dig a survivability position with overhead cover in the backyard. Complain that the 4x4s are not 8 inches on center and make them rebuild it.
36. Continuously ask your spouse to allow you to go buy an M-Gator.
37. When your 5-year-old asks for a stick of gum, have him find the exact stick and flavor he wants on the Internet and print out the web page. Type up a Form 9 and staple the web page to the back. Submit the paperwork to your spouse for processing. After two weeks, give your son the gum.
38. Announce to your family that the dog is a vector for disease and shoot it. Throw the dog in a burn pit you dug in your neighbor's back yard.
39. Wait for the coldest/ hottest day of the year and announce to your family that there will be no heat/air conditioning that day so you can perform much needed maintenance on the heater/ air conditioner. Tell them you are doing this so they won't get cold/ hot.
40. Just when you think you're ready to resume a normal life, order yourself to repeat this process for another six months to simulate the next deployment you've been ordered to support.
41. Have A Nice Day!
As MANY more troops and civilian advisers are going to be deploying to one of God's Own Hell Holes, it is becoming increasingly important that everyone prepares better than "The Young British Soldier" of Rudyard Kipling.
Everyone going to Afghanistan that is not a trained and experienced infantryman had better do their best to train up to that standard...
How to Prepare for a Deployment to Afghanistan
1. Sleep on a cot in the garage.
2. Replace the garage door with a curtain.
3. Six hours after you go to sleep, have your wife or girlfriend whip open the curtain, shine a flashlight in your eyes and mumble, "Sorry, wrong cot."
4. Renovate your bathroom. Hang a green plastic sheet down from the middle of your bathtub and move the showerhead down to chest level. Keep four inches of soapy cold water on the floor. Stop cleaning the toilet and pee everywhere but in the toilet itself. Leave two to three sheets of toilet paper. Or for best effect, remove it altogether. For a more realistic deployed bathroom experience, stop using your bathroom and use a neighbor's. Choose a neighbor who lives at least a quarter mile away.
5. When you take showers, wear flip-flops and keep the lights off.
6. Every time there is a thunderstorm, go sit in a wobbly rocking chair and dump dirt on your head.
7. Put lube oil in your humidifier instead of water and set it on "HIGH" for that tactical generator smell.
8. Don't watch TV except for movies in the middle of the night. Have your family vote on which movie to watch and then show a different one.
9. Leave a lawnmower running in your living room 24 hours a day for proper noise level.
10. Have the paperboy give you a haircut.
11. Once a week, blow compressed air up through your chimney making sure the wind carries the soot across and on to your neighbor's house. Laugh at him when he curses you.
12. Buy a trash compactor and only use it once a week. Store up garbage in the other side of your bathtub.
13. Wake up every night at midnight and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on a saltine cracker.
14. Make up your family menu a week ahead of time without looking in your food cabinets or refrigerator. Then serve some kind of meat in an unidentifiable sauce poured over noodles. Do this for every meal.
15. Set your alarm clock to go off at random times during the night. When it goes off, jump out of bed and get to the shower as fast as you can. Simulate there is no hot water by running out into your yard and breaking out the garden hose.
16. Once a month, take every major appliance completely apart and put it back together again.
17. Use 18 scoops of coffee per pot and allow it to sit for five or six hours before drinking.
18. Invite at least 185 people you don't really like because of their strange hygiene habits to come and visit for a couple of months. Exchange clothes with them.
19. Have a fluorescent lamp installed on the bottom of your coffee table and lie under it to read books.
20. Raise the thresholds and lower the top sills of your front and back doors so that you either trip over the threshold or hit your head on the sill every time you pass through one of them.
21. Keep a roll of toilet paper on your night stand and bring it to the bathroom with you. And bring your gun and a flashlight.
22. Go to the bathroom when you just have to pass gas, "just in case." Every time.
23. Announce to your family that they have mail, have them report to you as you stand outside your open garage door after supper and then say, "Sorry, it's for the other Smith."
24. Wash only 15 items of laundry per week. Roll up the semi-wet clean clothes in a ball. Place them in a cloth sack in the corner of the garage where the cat pees. After a week, unroll them and without ironing or removing the mildew, proudly wear them to professional meetings and family gatherings. Pretend you don't know what you look or smell like. Enthusiastically repeat the process for another week.
25. Go to the worst crime-infested place you can find, go heavily armed, wearing a flak jacket and a Kevlar helmet. Set up shop in a tent in a vacant lot. Announce to the residents that you are there to help them.
26. Eat a single M&M every Sunday and convince yourself it's for Malaria.
27. Demand each family member be limited to 10 minutes per week for a morale phone call. Enforce this with your teenage daughter.
28. Shoot a few bullet holes in the walls of your home for proper ambiance.
29. Sandbag the floor of your car to protect from mine blasts and fragmentation.
30. While traveling down roads in your car, stop at each overpass and culvert and inspect them for remotely detonated explosives before proceeding.
31. Fire off 50 cherry bombs simultaneously in your driveway at 3:00 a.m. When startled neighbors appear, tell them all is well, you are just registering mortars. Tell them plastic will make an acceptable substitute for their shattered windows.
32. Drink your milk and sodas warm.
33. Spread gravel throughout your house and yard.
34. Make your children clear their Super Soakers in a clearing barrel you placed outside the front door before they come in.
35. Make your family dig a survivability position with overhead cover in the backyard. Complain that the 4x4s are not 8 inches on center and make them rebuild it.
36. Continuously ask your spouse to allow you to go buy an M-Gator.
37. When your 5-year-old asks for a stick of gum, have him find the exact stick and flavor he wants on the Internet and print out the web page. Type up a Form 9 and staple the web page to the back. Submit the paperwork to your spouse for processing. After two weeks, give your son the gum.
38. Announce to your family that the dog is a vector for disease and shoot it. Throw the dog in a burn pit you dug in your neighbor's back yard.
39. Wait for the coldest/ hottest day of the year and announce to your family that there will be no heat/air conditioning that day so you can perform much needed maintenance on the heater/ air conditioner. Tell them you are doing this so they won't get cold/ hot.
40. Just when you think you're ready to resume a normal life, order yourself to repeat this process for another six months to simulate the next deployment you've been ordered to support.
41. Have A Nice Day!
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