Good job everyone, Polio is back!

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
Is this some conspiracy you have where US anti vaxers secretly caught polio, traveled to Africa, and infected the locals?
Don't think the OP would buy into that brand of crazy.

You really are not that bright are you? ;)

Disease can be brought into the USA and then spread by folks with no symptoms (sound familiar?) to morons that "don't need" to be vaccinated ... derp.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Meghan54

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
Broadly speaking I support vaccination as any reasonable physician would.
Now you're claiming to be an MD ...? :p

"Broadly speaking" what you are is incorrect in your assessment of the importance of the Polio vaccine in children and despite having been told the same repeatedly by several people you just can't admit you were wrong no matter how obvious it becomes.

THAT or something close to it is what every reasonable physician I know would say here.



 
Last edited:

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
Watch me: ;)


Inspiring but tragic story .... people today need to be reminded of the fear these diseases caused prior to vaccines before that fear comes back in spades due to mass-ignorance.




So.... who's the total POS that doesn't want their kid to get the Polio vaccine again?
 
Last edited:

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,921
2,727
136
Now you're claiming to be an MD ...? :p
I am an MD.

"Broadly speaking" what you are is incorrect in your assessment of the importance of the Polio vaccine in children and despite having been told the same repeatedly by several people you just can't admit you were wrong no matter how obvious it becomes.

THAT or something close to it is what every reasonable physician I know would say here.



Polio vaccination is quite important on a population level, much more so where it is still endemic. On an individual level in the United States, it is of trivial importance.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
I am an MD.
Scary. :oops: I'd hate to be your patient!

Shows what titles are worth assuming you aren't full of it. (which I think likely based on your conduct)

You should be ashamed of yourself either way..... FAR more so if you really swore an oath to do no harm.


 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Meghan54

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
60,349
8,500
136
Some of us remember having classmates with polio. I remember two when I was a child in elementary school.

It is a horrible disease.
indeed it is. I was in elementary school in the early 60's. We had to line up every year (for 2 or 3 years) to get the Salk vaccine. Some kids who got polio didn't get it badly...bad limp, maybe a brace...while others...terribly crippled.

TB is making a resurgence in the US as well...thanks at least in part to illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants are required to have medical screening before they are allowed to enter the country. Illegals not only jump the line, but avoid such screenings.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
indeed it is. I was in elementary school in the early 60's. We had to line up every year (for 2 or 3 years) to get the Salk vaccine. Some kids who got polio didn't get it badly...bad limp, maybe a brace...while others...terribly crippled.

TB is making a resurgence in the US as well...thanks at least in part to illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants are required to have medical screening before they are allowed to enter the country. Illegals not only jump the line, but avoid such screenings.

Would it shock anyone to see Polio show up here again as well?

The stupidity of anti-vaxxers truly knows no bounds..... :rolleyes:
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,665
5,938
126
indeed it is. I was in elementary school in the early 60's. We had to line up every year (for 2 or 3 years) to get the Salk vaccine. Some kids who got polio didn't get it badly...bad limp, maybe a brace...while others...terribly crippled.

TB is making a resurgence in the US as well...thanks at least in part to illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants are required to have medical screening before they are allowed to enter the country. Illegals not only jump the line, but avoid such screenings.
Making a resurgence? CDC is showing steady decline to historic lows:
Basically a nothing-burger in the US compared to COVID.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,007
4,344
136
I am an MD.



Polio vaccination is quite important on a population level, much more so where it is still endemic. On an individual level in the United States, it is of trivial importance.
Just proving George Carlin correct:

“Somewhere in the world is a doctor who is worse than all other doctors...and someone has an appointment with him in the morning.”

Sounds like you’ve been “outed.”
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,921
2,727
136
Scary. :oops: I'd hate to be your patient!

Shows what titles are worth assuming you aren't full of it. (which I think likely based on your conduct)

You should be ashamed of yourself either way..... FAR more so if you really swore an oath to do no harm.


Just proving George Carlin correct:

“Somewhere in the world is a doctor who is worse than all other doctors...and someone has an appointment with him in the morning.”

Sounds like you’ve been “outed.”
What is the benefit of berating someone? It's a topic I'm genuinely curious about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Muse

Motostu

Senior member
Oct 5, 2020
396
398
106
My thoughts on this topic; not polio specific, but vaccinations for any highly contagious virus.

The wait and see approach is too much of a risk for me. Who knows how many people are taking that same approach? All are a vector for the virus now. Once you find out that there has been a local case, it may be too late! How long does it take for the vaccine to make your immune system ready for the virus? Especially if multiple shots may be required.

Whoever got that first case that is reported in the U.S. may have been thinking the same way (I'll get the shot if there are local cases), but they ended up being the unlucky one that got it first.

Again, just my thinking.

Edit: and foreign travel makes it all the more important!
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,596
4,628
126
My thoughts on this topic; not polio specific, but vaccinations for any highly contagious virus.

The wait and see approach is too much of a risk for me. Who knows how many people are taking that same approach? All are a vector for the virus now. Once you find out that there has been a local case, it may be too late! How long does it take for the vaccine to make your immune system ready for the virus? Especially if multiple shots may be required.

Whoever got that first case that is reported in the U.S. may have been thinking the same way (I'll get the shot if there are local cases), but they ended up being the unlucky one that got it first.

Again, just my thinking.

Edit: and foreign travel makes it all the more important!
Right. Playing Russian roulette is dumb as hell. No matter the odds.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
35,330
6,837
126
My thoughts on this topic; not polio specific, but vaccinations for any highly contagious virus.

The wait and see approach is too much of a risk for me. Who knows how many people are taking that same approach? All are a vector for the virus now. Once you find out that there has been a local case, it may be too late! How long does it take for the vaccine to make your immune system ready for the virus? Especially if multiple shots may be required.

Whoever got that first case that is reported in the U.S. may have been thinking the same way (I'll get the shot if there are local cases), but they ended up being the unlucky one that got it first.

Again, just my thinking.

Edit: and foreign travel makes it all the more important!
I don't recall EVER refusing a vaccination for anything. If suggested or recommended me I take it. Have never regretted any of those for a moment. Got my 2nd Moderna booster the day after the CDC approved it (i.e. 5 days ago, and again, very mild reaction).

PS: The one exception was flu shot in 2020. I was hunkered down at home and didn't want to go to the clinic and get that vax and risk catching covid-19. My reasoning: How the hell could I catch the flu if I'm taking such precautions to not catch covid-19?!!! :rolleyes: I haven't been sick with anything since 2 months before the first US covid-19 case.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,921
2,727
136
My thoughts on this topic; not polio specific, but vaccinations for any highly contagious virus.

The wait and see approach is too much of a risk for me. Who knows how many people are taking that same approach? All are a vector for the virus now. Once you find out that there has been a local case, it may be too late! How long does it take for the vaccine to make your immune system ready for the virus? Especially if multiple shots may be required.

Whoever got that first case that is reported in the U.S. may have been thinking the same way (I'll get the shot if there are local cases), but they ended up being the unlucky one that got it first.

Again, just my thinking.

Edit: and foreign travel makes it all the more important!
These are all good questions. A very conservative calculus is indicated. The risk to an individual depends upon the level of immunity within the community, so there's no definite answer. Waiting until there is a single case in the US is reasonable if the epidemiology suggests that this would not lead to an outbreak. There are ~330M people in the US, so the chance that you individually get exposed to a single case are extremely small. Of course there are pocket communities of unvaccinated people, so that is where you might expect an outbreak of vaccine-preventable illness to occur. If you have high exposure to this community, planning on traveling to a country with endemic polio, or have exposure to people traveling from countries where polio is endemic, then your risk is a bit more appreciable.

But I am sorry for stirring the pot here. I thought more people like you would think critically about it instead of going all OMG-ANTIVAX ballistic. I might delete or amend the OP to at least more accurately reflect the 2 minute conversation I had with my wife about it because I find the topic interesting not because I actually didn't intend for my kids to be vaccinated.

Inactivated polio vaccination is extremely low risk. Even if you appreciate your own risk (or children's risk) to be zero, still get it. Theoretically could there be a responsible society that maintains a high but less than full vaccination status to keep polio effectively eradicated in the US? I think so, yet that's not the population we have.

Oral poliovirus vaccine is another interesting story, and not a positive one for the US in the late 70s-early 80s, but it was definitely highly instrumental in getting us to the excellent success we have now.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,007
4,344
136
I don't recall EVER refusing a vaccination for anything. If suggested or recommended me I take it. Have never regretted any of those for a moment. Got my 2nd Moderna booster the day after the CDC approved it (i.e. 5 days ago, and again, very mild reaction).

PS: The one exception was flu shot in 2020. I was hunkered down at home and didn't want to go to the clinic and get that vax and risk catching covid-19. My reasoning: How the hell could I catch the flu if I'm taking such precautions to not catch covid-19?!!! :rolleyes: I haven't been sick with anything since 2 months before the first US covid-19 case.
Well, back in 1978, I did "refuse" a yellow fever vaccine. And that was because I was 1) the one in charge of the vaccinations and shot records of 3 battalions of troops, and 2) The reason was a (drill) deployment that was an exercise taken to the nth degree...all vaccinations had to be up to date and then spent 4 hours on a C-17.

I did know it wasn't an actual deployment, so there's that.

It was interesting, tho. Yellow fever vaccine is a mix-and-shoot vaccine that has a very time limited life after reconstitution...about 6 hours, maybe.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,007
4,344
136
These are all good questions. A very conservative calculus is indicated. The risk to an individual depends upon the level of immunity within the community, so there's no definite answer. Waiting until there is a single case in the US is reasonable if the epidemiology suggests that this would not lead to an outbreak. There are ~330M people in the US, so the chance that you individually get exposed to a single case are extremely small. Of course there are pocket communities of unvaccinated people, so that is where you might expect an outbreak of vaccine-preventable illness to occur. If you have high exposure to this community, planning on traveling to a country with endemic polio, or have exposure to people traveling from countries where polio is endemic, then your risk is a bit more appreciable.

But I am sorry for stirring the pot here. I thought more people like you would think critically about it instead of going all OMG-ANTIVAX ballistic. I might delete or amend the OP to at least more accurately reflect the 2 minute conversation I had with my wife about it because I find the topic interesting not because I actually didn't intend for my kids to be vaccinated.

Inactivated polio vaccination is extremely low risk. Even if you appreciate your own risk (or children's risk) to be zero, still get it. Theoretically could there be a responsible society that maintains a high but less than full vaccination status to keep polio effectively eradicated in the US? I think so, yet that's not the population we have.

Oral poliovirus vaccine is another interesting story, and not a positive one for the US in the late 70s-early 80s, but it was definitely highly instrumental in getting us to the excellent success we have now.
Odd thing about OPV.....in 1975-76, while attending 91C school (clinical specialist...year-long school, the most independent enlisted MOS within the medical area) at Moncrief Army Hosp, Ft. Jackson, SC....we helped with vaccinating the new inductees. I gave out tons of sugar cubes coated with OPV....hell, I ate pounds of that over a year. Didn't do a damned thing to me other than probably inoculate me against polio forever.....LOL!
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,921
2,727
136
Odd thing about OPV.....in 1975-76, while attending 91C school (clinical specialist...year-long school, the most independent enlisted MOS within the medical area) at Moncrief Army Hosp, Ft. Jackson, SC....we helped with vaccinating the new inductees. I gave out tons of sugar cubes coated with OPV....hell, I ate pounds of that over a year. Didn't do a damned thing to me other than probably inoculate me against polio forever.....LOL!
OPV was very very effective at getting population immunity. In searching out more precise answers to @Motostu 's questions, I happened upon an article looking at OPV and IPV vaccinations from 80-83. At study entry, infants at 2 months had 90.9% detectable antibodies to poliovirus type 1, 96.5% to type 2, and 78.3% to type 3. This was before receiving any polio vaccine whatsoever -- effectively indicating that nearly every infant had already been exposed to the OPV from another child who had received the vaccine.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2843039/ Sorry you'll need institutional access to get the article for free.

Also in the article is the following text:
From 1973 through 1984, a total of 138 cases of paralytic polio were reported to the Centers for Disease Control (an average of 11.5 cases per year). One hundred and five of these (76 per cent) were associated with the administration of oral polio vaccine. During the most recent three years for which reporting is complete (1982-1984), 29 cases were reported, and all but one were vaccine-associated.
Obviously the risk of paralytic polio from OPV is very very low, but we kept giving it instead of switching to IPV for a chunk of time where the risk of paralytic polio from OPV was much higher than the risk of paralytic polio from polio.

Sad story for those affected, but it is more of a case of us using the OPV for too long rather than it being a bad idea in the first place. I don't want to understate that. OPV was revolutionary and still is indicated in some places of the world.

I should also note that, while there is a stretch in time where OPV caused more cases of paralytic polio than polio itself, that alone isn't sufficient to say IPV should have been used then. What would need to be understood is how many cases of paralytic polio were also prevented by OPV being used in exchange for IPV, which is not an easy thing to calculate. It depends on knowing how many people who didn't receive either vaccine ended up getting immunity through acquiring OPV from another person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pmv and Motostu

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
28,225
9,030
136
What is the benefit of berating someone? It's a topic I'm genuinely curious about.
Words ARE pretty much a waste of air with a jacka$$ like you I agree.

"interchange" is a fvcking disgrace to the entire medical field (or a fake) and worse has become part of the massive Russian propaganda-machine/Troll-army working to destroy America from within with misinformation even if he's too stupid to know it.

I think we need to make a real effort to find this clown IRL (and those like him) and make everyone starting with any hospital he's associated with and as many of his unfortunate patients as possible fully aware of the kind of trash that he spews online. (sounds like a huge "BENEFIT" to me!)

This crap has gone on for long enough... time to call out these traitors!

The highlighted is WAY over the line.

Perknose
Forum Director




:mad:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,032
803
136
Obviously the risk of paralytic polio from OPV is very very low, but we kept giving it instead of switching to IPV for a chunk of time where the risk of paralytic polio from OPV was much higher than the risk of paralytic polio from polio.

Sad story for those affected, but it is more of a case of us using the OPV for too long rather than it being a bad idea in the first place.
By what metric was this change "too long?" I think there's multiple issues that played into the timing of the decision for conversion of OPV to IPV that makes it a bit more complex than a simple refusal to switch from one vaccine version to another.

1) The Cutter Incident with IPV. If you haven't heard about it, Paul Offit has a really good book on it. Yes, IPV is still very much inactivated the same way now as it was in the 1950's, which I've always thought to be remarkable (in both good and bad ways). All it takes is a systematic failure of QC and a similar incident is theoretically possible (but I hope the secondary safety nets in place would prevent it from ever happening again).
2) Because of the success of OPV, only one manufacturer produced the original IPV formulation in the US into the 1980's.
3) Of the vaccine associated paralysis when published in 1994, ~15% did not result in significant or severe residual paralysis. On the other hand, not to ignore, 5 cases between 1980 and 1991 resulted in death.
4) There were serious concerns about the immunogenicity and production of the IPV even after the Cutter incident. It wasn't until the 1970's and 1980's that the modern version of IPV was formulated, and it wasn't approved by the US FDA until 1987.
5) Nonetheless, it took further time to understand whether the modern IPV formulation would have sufficient long-lasting immunity. Until that was known, it was unclear if additional booster doses would be needed, whereas OPV was known to offer nearly life-long immunity.
6) Even into the 1990's, it was recognized that the newer IPV vaccine induced a weaker mucosal immune response compared to OPV. This was a concern that could not be discarded given the potential for importation of the virus.
7) The last outbreak of paralytic polio occurred in 1979 in the US, but that doesn't rule out the potential for viral circulation in certain populations beyond that date (and just didn't cause paralytic polio).
8) In fact, as late as 1993, polio was known to circulate in certain unvaccinated populations in Canada, but didn't cause poliomyelitis.
9) The last known case of non-OPV associated poliomyelitis to occur in the Western Hemisphere was 1991 in Peru and Colombia. It wasn't until 2002 that Europe was deemed polio-free.
10) The ACIP and CDC decided to switch from OPV to a mixed series of IPV + OPV in 1997, and the full conversion to IPV occurred in 2000

One last fact I've always found incredible. One mutation is the difference between the attenuated polio strain in OPV versus a neuroinvasive strain. This is why OPV caused paralytic polio in rare cases (1 case per 2.4 million doses), all was needed was a single mutation.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY