Goldstone backtracks; says the report would have been different now

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
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At least he had the integrity to do so.
Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes

By Richard Goldstone, Friday, April 1, 8:42 PM
We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.

The final report by the U.N. committee of independent experts — chaired by former New York judge Mary McGowan Davis — that followed up on the recommendations of the Goldstone Report has found that “Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.”

Our report found evidence of potential war crimes and “possibly crimes against humanity” by both Israel and Hamas. That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.


The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee’s report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

For example, the most serious attack the Goldstone Report focused on was the killing of some 29 members of the al-Simouni family in their home. The shelling of the home was apparently the consequence of an Israeli commander’s erroneous interpretation of a drone image, and an Israeli officer is under investigation for having ordered the attack. While the length of this investigation is frustrating, it appears that an appropriate process is underway, and I am confident that if the officer is found to have been negligent, Israel will respond accordingly. The purpose of these investigations, as I have always said, is to ensure accountability for improper actions, not to second-guess, with the benefit of hindsight, commanders making difficult battlefield decisions.

While I welcome Israel’s investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel’s inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn’t negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.

Israel’s lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants. The Israeli military’s numbers have turned out to be similar to those recently furnished by Hamas (although Hamas may have reason to inflate the number of its combatants).

As I indicated from the very beginning, I would have welcomed Israel’s cooperation. The purpose of the Goldstone Report was never to prove a foregone conclusion against Israel. I insisted on changing the original mandate adopted by the Human Rights Council, which was skewed against Israel. I have always been clear that Israel, like any other sovereign nation, has the right and obligation to defend itself and its citizens against attacks from abroad and within. Something that has not been recognized often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations. I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.

Some have charged that the process we followed did not live up to judicial standards. To be clear: Our mission was in no way a judicial or even quasi-judicial proceeding. We did not investigate criminal conduct on the part of any individual in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. We made our recommendations based on the record before us, which unfortunately did not include any evidence provided by the Israeli government. Indeed, our main recommendation was for each party to investigate, transparently and in good faith, the incidents referred to in our report. McGowan Davis has found that Israel has done this to a significant degree; Hamas has done nothing.

Some have suggested that it was absurd to expect Hamas, an organization that has a policy to destroy the state of Israel, to investigate what we said were serious war crimes. It was my hope, even if unrealistic, that Hamas would do so, especially if Israel conducted its own investigations. At minimum I hoped that in the face of a clear finding that its members were committing serious war crimes, Hamas would curtail its attacks. Sadly, that has not been the case. Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms.

In the end, asking Hamas to investigate may have been a mistaken enterprise. So, too, the Human Rights Council should condemn the inexcusable and cold-blooded recent slaughter of a young Israeli couple and three of their small children in their beds.

I continue to believe in the cause of establishing and applying international law to protracted and deadly conflicts. Our report has led to numerous “lessons learned” and policy changes, including the adoption of new Israel Defense Forces procedures for protecting civilians in cases of urban warfare and limiting the use of white phosphorus in civilian areas. The Palestinian Authority established an independent inquiry into our allegations of human rights abuses — assassinations, torture and illegal detentions — perpetrated by Fatah in the West Bank, especially against members of Hamas. Most of those allegations were confirmed by this inquiry. Regrettably, there has been no effort by Hamas in Gaza to investigate the allegations of its war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

Simply put, the laws of armed conflict apply no less to non-state actors such as Hamas than they do to national armies. Ensuring that non-state actors respect these principles, and are investigated when they fail to do so, is one of the most significant challenges facing the law of armed conflict. Only if all parties to armed conflicts are held to these standards will we be able to protect civilians who, through no choice of their own, are caught up in war.

The writer, a retired justice of the Constitutional Court of South Africa and former chief prosecutor of the U.N. International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, chaired the U.N. fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict.

Finally he makes the distinction between a state that's forced into a difficult situation, and the terrorist organization which forced the situation.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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If Sammy was fairly reporting this, he could have linked more articles.
But Basically said Goldstone said, IMHO is that SOME of the previous evidence
that made a seemingly slam dunk that MANY Israeli soldiers DELIBERATELY Conspired
to commit war crimes, looks slightly less creditable now.

What Goldstone does not say is three things.

1. Goldstone was not alone in writing the report, and hence cannot be be alone in modifying the report.
2. The overall finding still stand, both Israel and Hamas committed war crimes in Gaza, but upon review, it looks like Israel committed a few less war crimes than previously thought. While its what Goldstone just said, Goldstone is silent on any proper process to follow to then modify and resubmit a more accurate new Goldstone Report that the UN members can better rely on.
3. Ever since Goldstone, as the head of a basic committee, submitted the Goldstone report to the UN, South African Jews were viciously making his life miserable. So some of it may be motivated by a Goldstone hope of getting in better graces with his Fellow Jews.

As for Israel and Netanyuhu, they are now trying to say the Goldstone report and Israeli war crimes have no basis in fact just because a few corrections were made.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Lemon, what do you have to say about Hamas?? Or did you forget that he wrote about them too?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Note that Hamas was also expected to investigate and did not.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Both PJ and Common Courtesy ask a good questions about Hamas.

And I have no problem in saying Hamas is wrong and committed war crimes also.

But Duh, isn't all terrorism and violent rebellion a war crime by definition. So we can say the USA was born in acts of war crimes in 1776. But established governments like Israel are supposed to be more responsible, especially if they are signatories to the Geneva convention. But wait, Hamas is supposed to be the freely elected government of Gaza since 2005. But wait can we (1) Really call Hamas a government when Israel controls its air space, sea ports, restricts its travel, imports, and exports. And we can ask how many votes and delegates does Hamas have in the UN? Is Hamas recognized as a Country like Libya or chile is? If not, how can we hold Hamas to the same standards of a recognized State? (2) The rockets aimed at Israel were launched inside of Gaza. But since the objective of ALL terrorist groups is to go to the best strategic places to launch their attacks, how can we or the UN assume the perps were Hamas backed Terrorists or just one of the many non Hamas backed terrorists groups that operate inside of Israel, inside of Gaza, inside of the West Bank, or other places all over the world?

Of course the other thing to say is that Hamas is a very recent group with a very short history of only six years or so. Yet Israel, because of it behavior, has been a magnet for world wide terrorism for 63 out of 63 years of its existence.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Both PJ and Common Courtesy ask a good questions about Hamas.

And I have no problem in saying Hamas is wrong and committed war crimes also.

But Duh, isn't all terrorism and violent rebellion a war crime by definition. So we can say the USA was born in acts of war crimes in 1776. But established governments like Israel are supposed to be more responsible, especially if they are signatories to the Geneva convention. But wait, Hamas is supposed to be the freely elected government of Gaza since 2005. But wait can we (1) Really call Hamas a government when Israel controls its air space, sea ports, restricts its travel, imports, and exports. And we can ask how many votes and delegates does Hamas have in the UN? Is Hamas recognized as a Country like Libya or Chile is? If not, how can we hold Hamas to the same standards of a recognized State? (2) The rockets aimed at Israel were launched inside of Gaza. But since the objective of ALL terrorist groups is to go to the best strategic places to launch their attacks, how can we or the UN assume the perps were Hamas backed Terrorists or just one of the many non Hamas backed terrorists groups that operate inside of Israel, inside of Gaza, inside of the West Bank, or other places all over the world?

Of course the other thing to say is that Hamas is a very recent group with a very short history of only six years or so. Yet Israel, because of it behavior, has been a magnet for world wide terrorism for 63 out of 63 years of its existence.

Hypocrite

You state that you feel that Hamas committed crimes and then turn and try to justify/excuse what they did.

Hamas claimed they were the government; yet they choose to duck governmental responsibility for their action and those of their offspring.

The restrictions on the Palestinians are due to the actions of the Palestinians in continual attacking Israel.
Remember that they had the opportunity to be an actual state and chose to ignore it. It was only when they and their sponsors finally realized that logically they would not be able to take of the Israeli section of Palestine that they started making noises. And Hamas still does not want to live with Israel; how will a Palestine state handle such.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Hypocrite

You state that you feel that Hamas committed crimes and then turn and try to justify/excuse what they did.

Hamas claimed they were the government; yet they choose to duck governmental responsibility for their action and those of their offspring.
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Its easy for you to call me a hypocrite, but riddle me this Common Courtesy, what price has Israel had to pay for the war crimes they committed in Gaza? Israel is in denial of its war crimes and so is Hamas.

Israel not only white washes its role in war crimes in Gaza, Israel similarly absolves itself of the killing of nine Turkish nationals when it boarded the Rachel Corrie in international waters. Funny thing, the Turks and many other don't buy the Israeli self white wash. Nor can Israel explain why they have ANY RIGHT to still control disputed lands in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem after 44 years of total non legitimacy no nation on earth
recognizes?

But when I finally agree with you that Hamas is also guilty of war crimes, the hypocrite Common Courtesy has no explanation of why both should not pay the same price. As instead, Common Courtesy demand that Hamas and not Israel be judged for the same sin.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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Hamas might not but the PALESTINIANS have a table at the UN. that means they must follow the rules too.


hypocrite found. LL in the crosshairs. aim. and fire
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Its easy for you to call me a hypocrite, but riddle me this Common Courtesy, what price has Israel had to pay for the war crimes they committed in Gaza? Israel is in denial of its war crimes and so is Hamas.

Israel not only white washes its role in war crimes in Gaza, Israel similarly absolves itself of the killing of nine Turkish nationals when it boarded the Rachel Corrie in international waters. Funny thing, the Turks and many other don't buy the Israeli self white wash. Nor can Israel explain why they have ANY RIGHT to still control disputed lands in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem after 44 years of total non legitimacy no nation on earth
recognizes?

But when I finally agree with you that Hamas is also guilty of war crimes, the hypocrite Common Courtesy has no explanation of why both should not pay the same price. As instead, Common Courtesy demand that Hamas and not Israel be judged for the same sin.

Eine kleine Nazi schweine.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The Jos answer is always, "Eine kleine Nazi schweine."

Which is little better than the Hitler or GWB answer of its my way or the highway.

Tell us all again how your my way or the highway is working out in Afghanistan JOS?

Well I confess, here my wife and I rooted hard hard hard for our different hone teams in the NCAA basket ball tournament, and now we are both finding the end results fell short of our expectations.

So therefore my excuse for my teams NCCA loss, should be, "Eine kleine Nazi schweine".

And instead the real answer is wait until next year, and Hitler discovered his "Eine kleine Nazi schweine", bullshit ultimately ceased to fly, why should Israel assume its same "Eine kleine Nazi schweine" crapola will cease to fly?

The only real question JOS, is will Israel grow a brain and avoid a violent end, or will Israel go the same violent way Hitler did? The choice is not mine, the choice is not yours, because neither of us will be the deciders. This problem has been festering for more than 63 years, and the world is going to have to fairly solve it.
 
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Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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Its easy for you to call me a hypocrite, but riddle me this Common Courtesy, what price has Israel had to pay for the war crimes they committed in Gaza? Israel is in denial of its war crimes and so is Hamas.

Israel not only white washes its role in war crimes in Gaza, Israel similarly absolves itself of the killing of nine Turkish nationals when it boarded the Rachel Corrie in international waters. Funny thing, the Turks and many other don't buy the Israeli self white wash. Nor can Israel explain why they have ANY RIGHT to still control disputed lands in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem after 44 years of total non legitimacy no nation on earth
recognizes?

But when I finally agree with you that Hamas is also guilty of war crimes, the hypocrite Common Courtesy has no explanation of why both should not pay the same price. As instead, Common Courtesy demand that Hamas and not Israel be judged for the same sin.


CLEARLY ISRAEL HAS DONE THINGS BECAUSE OF THE REPORT! THEY HAVE CHANGED POLICIES AND DID ACTUAL INVESTIGATIONS WITH PEOPLE BEING FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME!


WHAT HAS HAMAS DONE? NOTHING!!


I truely hope that went through
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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FGD says, "CLEARLY ISRAEL HAS DONE THINGS BECAUSE OF THE REPORT! THEY HAVE CHANGED POLICIES AND DID ACTUAL INVESTIGATIONS WITH PEOPLE BEING FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME!


WHAT HAS HAMAS DONE? NOTHING!!


I truely hope that went through "

Has Israel changed policies?, that clearly is a no, has Hamas changed policies?, that too is clearly a no.

So in terms of what FGD said, which is basically nothing, what FGD said, the FGD assertion is only a nothing.

As long as we ignore what is basically fair, we will never solve the mid-east questions.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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The Jos answer is always, "Eine kleine Nazi schweine."

Which is little better than the Hitler or GWB answer of its my way or the highway.

Tell us all again how your my way or the highway is working out in Afghanistan JOS?

Well I confess, here my wife and I rooted hard hard hard for our different hone teams in the NCAA basket ball tournament, and now we are both finding the end results fell short of our expectations.

So therefore my excuse for my teams NCCA loss, should be, "Eine kleine Nazi schweine".

And instead the real answer is wait until next year, and Hitler discovered his "Eine kleine Nazi schweine", bullshit ultimately ceased to fly, why should Israel assume its same "Eine kleine Nazi schweine" crapola will cease to fly?

The only real question JOS, is will Israel grow a brain and avoid a violent end, or will Israel go the same violent way Hitler did? The choice is not mine, the choice is not yours, because neither of us will be the deciders. This problem has been festering for more than 63 years, and the world is going to have to fairly solve it.

Sieg Heil!
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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FGD says, "CLEARLY ISRAEL HAS DONE THINGS BECAUSE OF THE REPORT! THEY HAVE CHANGED POLICIES AND DID ACTUAL INVESTIGATIONS WITH PEOPLE BEING FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIME!


WHAT HAS HAMAS DONE? NOTHING!!


I truely hope that went through "

Has Israel changed policies?, that clearly is a no, has Hamas changed policies?, that too is clearly a no.

So in terms of what FGD said, which is basically nothing, what FGD said, the FGD assertion is only a nothing.

As long as we ignore what is basically fair, we will never solve the mid-east questions.


did israel prosecute soldiers?


did they or not?


yes or no

its called precedent
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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This is how it looks:

Israel launched a war that was greatly excessive and killed many, many civilians.

This investigator wrote a report with criticism of both sides; his conclusions about Israel were especially politically damaging to Israel.

One of his criticisms among several was that based on the evidence about the many civilian casualties and Israel's failure to provide any evidence otherwise, it appeared to him Israel had a *policy* to *target* civilians. Now, he has seen additional evidence from Israel that has convinced him that there is not evidence to claim Israel had a policy to target civilians.

That does not change the other criticisms he made of Israel in the report; it is not a 'not guilty' verdict for Israel of wrongdoing.

It's one very serious crime he admitted making a mistake on - which is good news for everyone.

Unfortunately, there is nothing stopping other problems like settlements, and no accountability for other wrongs in the report this war covers.

Comments about the ongoing conflict that is a result of the occupation-type relationship between Israel and the Palestinians are pointless.

Pretty much any time you have that type of relationship between two groups, there will be resistance and force used by each side.

'But they launch rockets!' 'But they oppress!' isn't going anywhere. If the rockets stopped, there would be ongoing oppression, still a problem. If the Palestinians got a lot better at terrorism and caused large casualties against Israelis, it would just be violence, still a problem.

What's the answer? If Israel were put there is a weaker state not oppressing and expanding (despite some withdrawal as well), the other countries seem they might not care for Israel being there at all, and attack, unless there's a solid peace agreement in place. As it is, Israel is a constant, ongoing oppressor with no end in sight, taking control of more of Jerusalem and other areas, ongoing conflict.

Israel doesn't seem inclined to have a real compromise that's very fair, feeling time is on its side as it gradually grows and solidifies Israel as a Jewish state.

So we'll probably have more of the same stalemate, with everyone saying how they'd like peace - even if they do some form of 'Palestinian state'.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Excessive war? WTF does that mean? That's most retarded concept ever.

Wars purpose is when politics fail. Goal is kill until they submit to your viewpoint since politics failed in the first place.

If you don't kill until that point all you did was waste time, men, money and materials and should have talked.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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Lets address this post, one issue by another:

This is how it looks:

Israel launched a war that was greatly excessive and killed many, many civilians.

Israel launched a war and killed many civilians, no doubt about it. However, we must not forget that:

1. Israel was under constant rocket and mortar fire aimed squarely at civilians for over 2 years at that point, dozens of rockets a day and thousands over the period;

2. Israel was forced to fight in the most densely populated area in the world against a terrorist organization, that, unlike an army, whose men don't wear uniform, and uses the local population as a shelter from Israeli forces (such as the use of schools and mosques to hide weapons).

Now sorry but I don't understand what "excessive war" is. Do you claim Israel applied more force than required to achieve the objectives? Or is your claim based on a gut feeling?

This investigator wrote a report with criticism of both sides; his conclusions about Israel were especially politically damaging to Israel.

One of his criticisms among several was that based on the evidence about the many civilian casualties and Israel's failure to provide any evidence otherwise, it appeared to him Israel had a *policy* to *target* civilians. Now, he has seen additional evidence from Israel that has convinced him that there is not evidence to claim Israel had a policy to target civilians.

He had no evidence then and he has none now. Israel does not cooperate with that investigation. He simply followed the independent Israeli investigations.

That does not change the other criticisms he made of Israel in the report; it is not a 'not guilty' verdict for Israel of wrongdoing.

It's one very serious crime he admitted making a mistake on - which is good news for everyone.

Unfortunately, there is nothing stopping other problems like settlements, and no accountability for other wrongs in the report this war covers.

What settlements are there in Gaza, Craig?

Comments about the ongoing conflict that is a result of the occupation-type relationship between Israel and the Palestinians are pointless.

Pretty much any time you have that type of relationship between two groups, there will be resistance and force used by each side.

'But they launch rockets!' 'But they oppress!' isn't going anywhere. If the rockets stopped, there would be ongoing oppression, still a problem. If the Palestinians got a lot better at terrorism and caused large casualties against Israelis, it would just be violence, still a problem.

What's the answer? If Israel were put there is a weaker state not oppressing and expanding (despite some withdrawal as well), the other countries seem they might not care for Israel being there at all, and attack, unless there's a solid peace agreement in place. As it is, Israel is a constant, ongoing oppressor with no end in sight, taking control of more of Jerusalem and other areas, ongoing conflict.

Israel doesn't seem inclined to have a real compromise that's very fair, feeling time is on its side as it gradually grows and solidifies Israel as a Jewish state.

So we'll probably have more of the same stalemate, with everyone saying how they'd like peace - even if they do some form of 'Palestinian state'.

You present both sides as equals. Israel never declared it wishes to eradicate the Palestinians, while both Hamas and PLO declared many times that their goal is to destroy the state of Israel altogether. This is why they will always find an excuse to keep fighting, no matter how Israel appeases them.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Excessive war? WTF does that mean? That's most retarded concept ever.

Wars purpose is when politics fail. Goal is kill until they submit to your viewpoint since politics failed in the first place.

If you don't kill until that point all you did was waste time, men, money and materials and should have talked.
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Zebo may have a partial understanding of one type of war, but shows he absolutely has no understanding of Guerrilla war, terrorism, or nationalism. And one of the problems in such wars is that they get especially oppressive when economic oppression is paired with religious discrimination.

One such long standing issue looks like it has finally become solved, namely the Irish terrorism that England had to endure for nearly 400 years. But that Irish issue is but a wee youngster, compared to a places like Vietnam. That has been in the get rid of foreign domination business, for over three or four thousand years.

Its a sort of 800 LB gorilla question, the 800 LB gorilla can sleep where ever they want, but they never get a good nights sleep because they always sleep on an ant hill. While their main opposition sleeps comfortably away from the 800 LB Gorilla. As soon as the Gorilla chases after them they don't just run away, and instead they scatter in every direction. And while the 800 pound Gorilla may catch a few, the gorilla can never catch them all. After awhile, the 800 lb gorilla finally gives up because he is bleeding blood and treasure while the very people the Gorilla needs to give him a hug and support hate the Gorilla even more.

The other problem for the 800 LB gorilla is that the Gorilla can't indiscriminately bomb the very people he tries to control, because the Geneva convention has defined that collective punishment as a war crime.

And sadly, Israel is skating on very then Ice regarding Lebanon and Gaza.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Israel was under constant rocket and mortar fire aimed squarely at civilians for over 2 years at that point, dozens of rockets a day and thousands over the period
No, it wasn't constant, as the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center recounts:

An analysis of the situation on the ground indicates two distinct periods:

i) A period of relative quiet between June 19 and November 4: As of June 19,
there was a marked reduction in the extent of attacks on the western Negev
population. The lull was sporadically violated by rocket and mortar shell fire, carried out by rogue terrorist organizations, in some instance in defiance of Hamas (especially by Fatah and Al-Qaeda supporters). Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. The IDF refrained from undertaking counterterrorism activities in the Gaza Strip, taking only routine defensive security measures along the border fence. Between June 19 and November 4, 20 rockets (three of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) and 18 mortar shells (five of which fell inside the Gaza Strip) were fired at Israel.

ii) The escalation and erosion of the lull arrangement, November 4 to the
time of this writing, December 172: On November 4 the IDF carried out a military action close to the border security fence on the Gazan side to prevent an abduction planned by Hamas, which had dug a tunnel under the fence to that purpose. Seven Hamas terrorist operatives were killed during the action. In retaliation, Hamas and the other terrorist organizations attacked Israel with a massive barrage of rockets. Since then, 191 rockets and 138 mortar shells have been fired. The attacks have been continuous and some were carried out by weapons not previously used, such as 122mm standard Grad rockets and 120mm mortar shells. Hamas has been directly involved in the attacks in cooperation with the other terrorist organizations.

As for your claims of Hamas fighting without their uniforms, and hiding weapons in schools and mosques; I don't suppose you can present any evidence to back that up, can you? Regardless, your claim reminds me of this old British news reel showing weapons hidden in synagogues and schools by Zionist terrorists during the mandate period.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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As for your claims of Hamas fighting without their uniforms, and hiding weapons in schools and mosques; I don't suppose you can present any evidence to back that up, can you?

It's a site run by Jews but it's the first thing that popped up when I googled for some evidence. Now prove they did not.

Regardless, your claim reminds me of this old British news reel showing weapons hidden in synagogues and schools by Zionist terrorists during the mandate period.

Yep, pretty much. Mind, what Hamas terrorists are doing is understandable being that they are facing an infinitely stronger enemy and that they are intent on fighting further no matter what the cost is - in money or human life - for their own people. Just don't whine about this to the UN, that's all; you put them in the line of fire.

I fully support their right to shoot rockets from schools, it's between them and the local population which allegedly elected them.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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I know, it's the same organisation i cited to debunk your "constant rocket and mortar fire" claim in my previous post. I get the impression that there is no chance of you acknowledging such facts though, regardless of who is recounting them, Jews or otherwise, eh?

Anyway, when you said "the use of schools and mosques to hide weapons" I got the impression you were claiming actual weapons caches like the Zionist ones in the news reel I linked, not just a single assault rifle with a few magazines, a couple rounds of what looks like it could be be unexploded Israeli ordnance, and a booby-trap in an evacuated school.

Just don't whine about this to the UN, that's all; you put them in the line of fire.
WTF, how exactly are you blaming me for putting them in the line of fire? It was Zionists who drove the bulk of Gaza's population there when they ethnically cleansed them from what is now Israel.
 
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