Golden State Killer may finally be caught

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,507
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So, the GED, does any of that include actual DNA specifics? Data detailing specific individual's DNA? Or is the result of data mining at these genealogy sites specific to identities, email addresses (maybe other personal data) of the individuals whose DNA analysis exists at the sites? I'm totally unclear about these issues?

In the case of DeAngelo, the papers say he was linked to 3rd and 4th cousins via GEDMatch and the family tree worked up by investigators was in the neighborhood of 1000 people.
 

conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
890
126
So, the GED, does any of that include actual DNA specifics? Data detailing specific individual's DNA? Or is the result of data mining at these genealogy sites specific to identities, email addresses (maybe other personal data) of the individuals whose DNA analysis exists at the sites? I'm totally unclear about these issues?

In the case of DeAngelo, the papers say he was linked to 3rd and 4th cousins via GEDMatch and the family tree worked up by investigators was in the neighborhood of 1000 people.

First off GEDmatch does not mine other websites for any genealogical or DNA information. Users of 23andme, ancestry, and possibly other sites who have had their DNA tested using those sites upload their raw DNA information from those sites to GEDmatch. The test sites do not list any specific information about the DNA results other than listing places where their ancestors originated by percentage and people whose test results indicate that they have at least some matching DNA. GEDmatch does offer the ability to compare matching strands of DNA graphically by entering the kit number of a match and comparing it to yours. So I guess you could say that with GEDmatch you can at least view specific DNA portions of partial matches.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,507
8,102
136
First off GEDmatch does not mine other websites for any genealogical or DNA information. Users of 23andme, ancestry, and possibly other sites who have had their DNA tested using those sites upload their raw DNA information from those sites to GEDmatch. The test sites do not list any specific information about the DNA results other than listing places where their ancestors originated by percentage and people whose test results indicate that they have at least some matching DNA. GEDmatch does offer the ability to compare matching strands of DNA graphically by entering the kit number of a match and comparing it to yours. So I guess you could say that with GEDmatch you can at least view specific DNA portions of partial matches.
Your last sentence perplexes me.

Anyway, I'm wondering ... when GDEmatch tells you that you have genetic markers indicating that you are related to person X, what do they tell you about person X? Do they give you any info about their DNA? What specific info do they provide, beyond email address, which I think I saw indicated as provided?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,442
7,506
136

The hits on DeAngelo came from third and fourth cousins, Holes said. Family members directly related to DeAngelo’s great, great, great, great grandfather dating back to the 1800s when families would often have 15 kids. Holes and his team built out more than 25 different family trees. The tree that eventually linked to the Golden State Killer was so large, it contained about 1,000 people, he said.

The implications from this are rather astounding.

You can go back to anyone in your tree from 150+ years ago and find matches. And so can law enforcement.
 
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conehead433

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2002
5,566
890
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Your last sentence perplexes me.

Anyway, I'm wondering ... when GDEmatch tells you that you have genetic markers indicating that you are related to person X, what do they tell you about person X? Do they give you any info about their DNA? What specific info do they provide, beyond email address, which I think I saw indicated as provided?
No you do not get any specific information about anyone else's DNA. The site displays how many cM Autosomal and X-DNA match yours, and based on the results how many generations you are to them. I'm done here.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,592
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We're arguing different things. I don't disagree with you, just I don't think we're talking the same thing.

Do I think insurance companies, your cousin, some guy down the street should have access to genealogy databases?

No. There should be laws against that, strictly enforced, agreed to by all parties when a person donates their DNA. If violated, it should be a crime. If such laws aren't already in place, then they should be put in place right away.

Do I think every random cold case with DNA evidence that police have exhausted common methods solving, should have access to genealogy databases?

Generally no, but possibly with exceptions, all of which would involve proper cause, warrants, oversight, t's dotted, i's crossed, etc.


Do I think unsolved serial rape/murder cases like this should have access to genealogy databases?

Ab-so-fucking-lutely- with all the above precautions in place.


I personally don't see a fear of using genealogy databases to solve crimes being in any way more prone to abuse 'just because' than any other, in fact less so. I'd love to know of a scenario where people think anyone is going to abuse it in an purposeful way that would stand up in court.

I just don't think people understand how crimes get solved. Not one bit. The traditional way involves police interviewing dozens of suspects/witnesses and their "heresay" basically putting the finger on suspects. Then the police gather (or worse case plant/manufacture/manipulate or ignore) evidence that either exonerates or indicts the suspect(s).

There's ALL KINDS of avenues of abuse that can be introduced into that process. As we've seen with various innocence projects, the wrong person can and often does end up behind bars. It's often DNA (far less easily manipulated) that frees them.

You could end up a suspect in a case you have nothing to do with, simply because some Joe Blow that doesn't like you implicates you via word of mouth. Your 'privacy' rights (and your very freedom) can be all kinds of violated based simply on someone's faulty or malicious recollection of you at a crime scene.

I see tools like DNA as much more accurate than the traditional methods. The idea of some slippery slope of abuse (from law enforcement standpoint- everything else shouldn't be on the table AT ALL because I don't believe in its use for anything else, ie all the insurance company examples etc.) seem to be LESS likely by far, than abuse of the traditional investigative methods.

damn I forgot about this thread, but I tend to agree with this, assuming proper protections are in place.

...and especially with traditional policing methods which have, by and large, been proven to be major bunk: finger printing, bullet-marking/gun-barrel matching, hair fiber and cloth fiber comparisons, etc. ....
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,507
8,102
136
DNA as crime deterrent is a major development. There won't be so many egomaniacals aspiring to chapters of there own in books about the great unsolved crimes of the century now. Jack the Ripper, Zodiac (who may be caught now), DiAngelo (caught), you have to be pretty unhinged to think you will get away with those sprees from now on, or not care.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,592
29,218
146
DNA as crime deterrent is a major development. There won't be so many egomaniacals aspiring to chapters of there own in books about the great unsolved crimes of the century now. Jack the Ripper, Zodiac (who may be caught now), DiAngelo (caught), you have to be pretty unhinged to think you will get away with those sprees from now on, or not care.

Didn't the Zodiac killer die ~20 years ago?
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Pretty hard to say since the Zodiac was never ID'd.

I'm hoping that changes soon.

http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article210320689.html

Problem with the Zodiac case is the lack of DNA in the first place. He shot and stabbed victims, not raped so there's no DNA from the crimes. Probably the same problem with a lot of killers.

But he did like to send taunting letters to the police and there's hope he actually licked the stamps.

I remember reading though that in previous fingerprint/DNA testing of Zodiac letters, there was no match to any known suspects and it's even believed he was clever enough to hire kids to mail his letters for him, including stamping them. So could be a goosechase.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,592
29,218
146
Pretty hard to say since the Zodiac was never ID'd.

I'm hoping that changes soon.

http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article210320689.html

Problem with the Zodiac case is the lack of DNA in the first place. He shot and stabbed victims, not raped so there's no DNA from the crimes. Probably the same problem with a lot of killers.

But he did like to send taunting letters to the police and there's hope he actually licked the stamps.

I remember reading though that in previous fingerprint/DNA testing of Zodiac letters, there was no match to any known suspects and it's even believed he was clever enough to hire kids to mail his letters for him, including stamping them. So could be a goosechase.

Wasn't there that one prime suspect--some weird mechanic or somesuch--that the lead FBI dude strongly held to be the killer (Zodiac was regularly sending FBI dude personal letters for years and years, right?) who eventually died in prison, where he served for some other crime, and the letters immediately stopped? I think they had tied his writing style and habits to the letters attributed to Zodiac, a technique which well-predated the rhetorical analysis methods that actually identified Ted Kaczinsky as UnaBomb

Yes, it was never conclusively proven, but I think that guy is generally accepted as the Zodiac Killer?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,507
8,102
136
Yes, it was never conclusively proven, but I think that guy is generally accepted as the Zodiac Killer?
I don't remember hearing that ... the article I read in the paper the other day gave hope in IDing him from the hopefully licked stamps. Of course, he might be dead, which would make the discovery less interesting. Anyway, the Zodiac was an angel compared to DiAngelo, evidently.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
So and so Lee Allen I think was the best suspect ever in that case. (Too lazy to look it up right now).

I could be wrong, but no I don't think there's a genrally accepted person as the Zodiac. Just a few strong suspects and one or two really strong suspects like so-and-so Lee Allen.

Arthur Lee Allen... it just came to me.

Gotta look it up again. I'm not sure what's actual fact and what's something I saw in a movie lol.

I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure anything pinning a definitive suspect... is based on a movie not evidence. I know there's a lot wrong with ALA being the Zodiac for certain. I think he wasn't linked by DNA... but then also suspected that the samples compared werent viable due to the fact the Zodiac may have enlisted others to mail his ramblings.

Hopefully we'll find out. Dead or not, the DNA could still at least ID the zodiac.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,592
29,218
146
So and so Lee Allen I think was the best suspect ever in that case. (Too lazy to look it up right now).

I could be wrong, but no I don't think there's a genrally accepted person as the Zodiac. Just a few strong suspects and one or two really strong suspects like so-and-so Lee Allen.

Arthur Lee Allen... it just came to me.

Gotta look it up again. I'm not sure what's actual fact and what's something I saw in a movie lol.

I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure anything pinning a definitive suspect... is based on a movie not evidence. I know there's a lot wrong with ALA being the Zodiac for certain. I think he wasn't linked by DNA... but then also suspected that the samples compared werent viable due to the fact the Zodiac may have enlisted others to mail his ramblings.

Hopefully we'll find out. Dead or not, the DNA could still at least ID the zodiac.

hmm, you're probably right. I think everything I know about it might be based on that Fincher Flick, lol. I should have just said: that guy writing the notes to Jake Gylaanhall and Gylaanhal stopped getting the regular, predictable notes as soon as that guy died so yeah, it was obviously that guy. :D
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,507
8,102
136
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