Goin' Budget HT

[The J]

I'm updating the first post here for anyone else who may be in my situation (want HT but don't have a lot of money). I had the Cambridge MegaWorks 550, but wanted something better (and they started screwing up). At first I didn't think I could get anything decent on such a low budget, but after reading around on AVS Forum and Home Theater Forums and through this thread, I found out that my $700 for everything could get me a pretty nice setup.

Here is what I ended up getting:
Fluance SX-HTB+ $260 ($330 shipped)*
Dayton 12" 150W subwoofer $140 (~$160 shipped)
Onkyo TX-SR502 refurb AV Receiver $150 on sale/$165 usually (~$170 shipped w/ sale or ~$200 shipped normally)

*The SX-HTB is being discontinued and is being replaced by SX-HTB+. I got the Plus version for the same price as the normal version since I ordered before Sept. 19. The Plus version will be around $300, I think.
If you still need to go lower, check out the Fluance AV-HTB or the Athena Point5 systems for about $200. You can also use the Dayton 10" sub which should be on sale for about $100, but is usually around $120.
If you can't find the Onkyo SR502 for a good price, then look at the Pioneer VSX-D514. I was planning on getting that one, but I wanted more optical inputs (the Pioneer has one) for future game systems. The Onkyo has 3 optical inputs and 1 coaxial digital input.

I'm using my Audigy 2 ZS to output analog to the receiver's multichannel input. Some claim to have had ground loop problems or problems with the card's Crossover/Bass Redirection settings, but I haven't encountered either of those. A Dolby Digital Live card is also a good choice if you want to spend the money (I stuck with the A2ZS since I play a lot of games). Such cards are the Turtle Beach Montego DDL, the HDA X-Mystique, and the onboard nVidia SoundStorm for the nForce and nForce2 chipsets. Creative also has the DTS-610 which is a stand-alone DTS Interactive encoder.

The difference is huge and was worth every penny. If you're unsure about whether or not you want to spend the money, see if you can find someone or a store that has something set up for you to listen to. I didn't have that option, but now that I have everything going I'm glad I took the chance.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread.


Original post below:
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EDIT: Cliff's Notes on second post. No longer considering Sony sub or SDAT LEB-404.

Okay, so for various reasons and problems I will be replacing my MegaWorks 550 speakers. I've been looking around for some time and I am liking the idea of going to an HT-type system. The problem is that I only have about $700 to spend for everything, including shipping and cables and things like that. Since I game, I plan to connect the receiver to my Audigy 2 ZS via the analog connection.

I guess my first questions are: Is putting an HT together on such a small budget that much better than going with PC speakers (like the Klipsch Ultras)? If it is, then is there a problem with an analog connection? I'd imagine it'd be okay, but then why does everyone want the DDL encoding if analog works okay? I'd rather not have to give up the Audigy 2 ZS since I'm happy with it and play games frequently.

The room these will be in is a lounge area for a dorm "suite", which is basically the lounge with 4 branching rooms to sleep in. I will have 5 roommates, which means several game systems will be hooked up to this and music and movies will be playing a lot. I haven't seen the suite I'll be in, but the lounge area is a decent size (larger than a normal dorm room at my school). I'd guess about 18x12...? I'd guess it'd be about 50% music/30% games/20% movies.

I've done some research and have found that there's more choices in the low end than I originally thought. I'm just not sure which of those choices I can combine to do well, which is why I'm here. Basically, I was hoping people here could help me piece things together, give me pointers, or tell me that this is all a waste of time and I need more money. So without further ado or adon't, I give you the fruits of my "research".


Speakers
Fluance AV-HTB($200) and SX-HTB($260): Fluance seems to be highly praised for their speakers due to their performance for the price. Shipping is quite expensive, but the price still seems good. People seemed to not like the center channels on these, though. How bad are they?

Athena Point 5($200): Well, they're cheap, portable, and people really like them. Not much else to say. The portability helps when transporting them to and from college. Speakers these size are about as small as I'd like to go.

My brother found some speakers on Overstock.com that seemed pretty nice from a company called SDAT Group. I've never heard of them before. I searched Google and found a thread on eCoustics in which peole who have them seem to like them, but others say they're white van quality. I was looking at mainly the LEB-404. If I get these, I'd only get the towers for the font becuase I won't have room in a car to bring 4 towers to college. I'd have to get surrounds and a center channel for them. I wouldn't mind trying them out at all (they look nice) if I can find a decent center and surrounds and still stay within budget. Any suggestions?

I'm sure I had found more speakers, I just can' remember them right now. I'll update this if I find them.

Subwoofers
Well, there isn't much here, but I'm pretty sure the two I found I wouldn't complain about.

Dayton 12": The successor to the popular 10" budget sub has people on AVSForum impressed by its performance for the price. Some have claimed that the 10" and 12" Daytons will get as low as 25Hz, which is something I would like for games and movies, while still staying quite accurate and not boomy (is "tight" the word?). I haven't seen any frequency sweep graphs for it, but it has to be popular for some reason. At $140, I can't really lose can I?

Sony SA-WX700: Some reviews I've read claim that this thing easily hits 20Hz. There was also a poster on AVSForum that claimed it went down to 18Hz and people on the Home Theater Forum seem to like it. However, it is generally about $80 more than the Dayton. Would the possible extra 7Hz lower even be worth the extra cash?

Also, it seems that going to an 80Hz crossover is recommended; however, I don't think I'll be able to do that with the speakers I'm looking at. I'll probably start at 100Hz and see how that goes. Note that I'm coming from computer audio where 125Hz crossovers are normal. Should I look for speakers I can do 80Hz with or is it really not a huge deal?

Receivers...
...is where I'm lost. I want to find something that'll let me stay in budget ($700 for everything, but I don't know what good. With the room I'm in, I don't think I'll need gobs of power (my MegaWorks could have filled the room easily until they screwed up), but I'd like a couple digital optical inputs for game systems to connect to the speakers. I found the Pioneer VSX-D514 (link goes to 6.1 version), but that only has one optical input. I'll settle for the one if I can't get more without breaking the bank. Any help here would be great.

I figured that for wiring I'd just use some regular, cheap 16ga cable.


I appreciate the help as I'm not really sure how things will fit together. I'm sure that I'd be impressed with any of the above, but if I'm going to spend the money I might as well make sure it's going to the right places.

Thanks for the help.

 

[The J]

An update and bump together in one easy-to-use, convenient post...

Dayton 10" is on sale for $100. Is the 12" worth the extra $40? I think I'm going to forget about the Sony.


**Cliff's Notes**
-Want HT system
-Have $700
-Medium sized room, lots of music but games and movies as well
-Speakers:
--Fluance AV-HTB
--Fluance SX-HTB
--Athena Point 5
-Subs:
--Dayton 12"
--10" Dayton above
-Receivers:
--Pioneer VSX-D514
--I need more suggestions for receivers

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Hi there

You sound like me about a year and a half ago.

I enjoyed switching over to a HT set vs computer speakers. No problems with connecting to a computer if you get a receiver with 6 channel direct input.

If you're planning on hooking up a lot of sources like gaming systems etc, then getting a receiver is a much better idea than trying to connect a lot of things to computer speakers.

Have you looked over at AVSforum and Hometheaterforum at all yet?

A guy down the hall from me had the AV-HTB set and my first set was the SX-HTB set. He and I agreed that the SX set was worth the extra I paid for it.

The center channel was certainly the weak point in the system. It wasn't any worse than your average HTIB type center, but it wasn't up to the same quality as the mains were. I didn't mind that the surround were the same lower quality though as they're not used a whole lot. Oh, and Fluance told me in an e-mail that they were coming out with a new center channel for the SX set sometime in the next year (this is when I talked to them around christmas time)

I was happy with them for the price though.

As for the sub, I bought the dayton 10" and I liked it. The 12" wasn't out when I bought mine, but now that it is and I've seen some good stuff about it, I'd go with it over the 10".

The sony sub hits 20hz before it rolls off? That's news to me. I thought my current PB10 was about as cheap as you could go to get something that low.

The SX-HTB speakers are all rated down to 80hz. I didn't actually have an SPL meter at the time when I was setting up the crossover so I didn't test them.

Would you consider getting a refurb receiver?


Overall if I had to do it over again I think I would have spent my original budget just on a set of stereo speakers and a nice receiver and then as time went on I would have added a center, sub, and surround speakers (or used the first set of fronts as surrounds and gotten new fronts).

If you want to end up putting a lot of money into this, leaving yourself and upgrade path would be a good idea, but if you want to have it over and done with then I think you've got some good picks for a full setup.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

A refurb onkyo 502 for example has a 6 channel input that would get you surround sound out of your computer, has 3 digital optical inputs, and should be plenty of power for you.

 

[The J]

Thanks for the reply. Actually, after I posted I saw that same refurb Onkyo 502 you linked to. I'm not at all opposed to refurb and right now it seems like that's the one I'd go with. Having you recommend it saves me from making another post.

I have been looking on AVSForum and HomeTheaterForum. AVSForum is where I found out about the Dayton 12" and the Athena Point 5 system. I also didn't realize that many receivers had analog inputs until I began reading there.

As for the Sony sub, I've only read that it goes down to 20Hz. I have no idea how flat it is. There was a post on AVSForum by someone who claimed that his SA-WX700 hit 18Hz, though that might have been at -10db or so. I don't think I'll be looking at that one anymore because it's over $200 for a possible 7Hz lower than the Dayton 12" ($140) and quite a few people on AVSForum have said that the Daytons will at least get to about 27-28Hz or even lower, which I certainly won't complain about since my current MegaWorks 550 sub rattles at 40Hz.

I would like to get the full surround sound going just because this is something that I would like to spend the money now on (while I still have money) and keep for a few years while I'm still in college or grad school. So there really is a good difference between the two Fluance sets, eh? To be honest I didn't think the difference would be very large. So it seems like I should go for the SX-HTB unless something happens to my budget or the shipping cost is astronomical, in which case I still have to decide between the AV-HTB and the Athena Point 5. I couldn't find any online comparisons between the two, but I'm leaning towards going Fluance either way for the towers in front (I listen to a lot of music).

I do have one question, though. I'm pretty sure that the Onkyo 502 can't upmix to component or S-Video from composite, but I don't need that since my TV (and those of my roommates) have only composite input. Can the Onkyo or other recievers downmix the signal from S-Video or Component to Composite? That would give me more inputs for connecting systems and whatever else we have to out not-so-technologically advanced TV.

Again, thanks for your reply. I think I have a better idea of where I want to go with this.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I thought I was going to keep my Fluance set for several years too when i got it

Hmmm... I thought I'd mention this because I know these are a good deal right now but it might be slighly out of your budget.

My current speakers are from AV123 and I'm quite happy with them. They have great customer service and a nice community over there too.
Anyway, their ELT speakers are on sale for $149/pair. linky
Three pairs of those would get you a 6.0 system or two sets and a RSC100 for a 5.0 system.

On the downconversion issue... I haven't really tried it myself so I can't give you an answer on that.

When I wanted to connect different composite devices, I found the front input jacks to be useful on my receiver. Just plug in whatever device you want to use.

 

[Excelsior]

I agree with Jello. Better to build your system up. A good stereo setup (2.0 or 2.1) sounds quite good by itself anyway.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
I agree with Jello. Better to build your system up. A good stereo setup (2.0 or 2.1) sounds quite good by itself anyway.

Random 2.1 setup just for fun:

Ascend acoustics 170s ($328) / Axiom M3ti ($300) / Axiom M22 ($440) / ELTs with bass stations and forget the sub for now ($547) / B-stock RS250s ($499)
Onkyo 502 ($150)
Dayton 12" ($140)
+ shipping

ooooh, more randomness: b-stock rsc100

 

[CSMR]

You can get an acceptable stereo setup with $700 nowadays (without sub - merging sub and speakers well is not an easy task). I would say $500 for a pair of used speakers, $100-200 for a used Panasonic SA-XR series amplifier with digital input. (For analog input other amplifiers would work well, but the analog output of Creative cards - excepting the latest expensive ones - is poor).

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Excelsior
I agree with Jello. Better to build your system up. A good stereo setup (2.0 or 2.1) sounds quite good by itself anyway.

Random 2.1 setup just for fun:

Ascend acoustics 170s ($328) / Axiom M3ti ($300) / Axiom M22 ($440) / ELTs with bass stations and forget the sub for now ($547) / B-stock RS250s ($499)
Onkyo 502 ($150)
Dayton 12" ($140)
+ shipping

ooooh, more randomness: b-stock rsc100

Exactly, that would be a great setup (any one of those).

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: CSMR
You can get an acceptable stereo setup with $700 nowadays (without sub - merging sub and speakers well is not an easy task). I would say $500 for a pair of used speakers, $100-200 for a used Panasonic SA-XR series amplifier with digital input. (For analog input other amplifiers would work well, but the analog output of Creative cards - excepting the latest expensive ones - is poor).

If you do get a receiver and don't use 6 channel direct input, you're not going to get surround sound from your computer with your Audigy. You could do Prologic II or a variant on it, but it's not going to be true surround sound like you're used to.

I think the xr units have 6 channel direct input though, so that would be another option for you. I've read a lot of good stuff about them too.

 

[CSMR]

I was suggesting stereo. For the same price Mr J would get a major step up in quality with stereo. The XR units I woudn't recommend with analog input since they have to perform AD conversion on it.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: CSMR
I was suggesting stereo. For the same price Mr J would get a major step up in quality with stereo. The XR units I woudn't recommend with analog input since they have to perform AD conversion on it.

I know it would be stereo initially, but I'd assume he'd be upgrading that to 5.1 over time.

So the digital amps in the Panasonic would require the analog inputs to be converted to digital and then after amplification back to analog within the unit?

 

[CSMR]

They are digitally controlled class-D, and there isn't a line level analog signal anywhere. SPDIF is converted into a PWM to control the power switching.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: CSMR
They are digitally controlled class-D, and there isn't a line level analog signal anywhere. SPDIF is converted into a PWM to control the power switching.

Yup the panasonic amps are supposedly supperb for digital inputs...but with the extra conversions with analog inputs...it just doesn't hold up.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Well, sounds like it wouldn't be the ideal product for him with a lot of analog gaming connections and an audigy card then

 

[CSMR]

The TEAC L-700P and Sharp EX-111 are good budget stereo choices, and JVC RX-F10 a good multichannel receiver. They are analog-controlled. However the Audigy 2 doesn't have good analog output. (Even the digital output needs to be resampled in software to be acceptable.) I don't know much about multichannel - it surprises me there is no digial transmission for more than two channels.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: CSMR
The TEAC L-700P and Sharp EX-111 are good budget stereo choices, and JVC RX-F10 a good multichannel receiver. They are analog-controlled. However the Audigy 2 doesn't have good analog output. (Even the digital output needs to be resampled in software to be acceptable.) I don't know much about multichannel - it surprises me there is no digial transmission for more than two channels.

You can get a DDL card, but creative doesn't have one.

I'm using an HDA X-Mystique to my receiver. It encodes Dolby Digital in real time during games to transmit 5.1 digitally.

 

[The J]

I think I'll keep the Audigy 2 ZS. I can always change cards later if I don't like the output of the Audigy. DDL cards should be cheaper then, right?

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I'm not sure if I'll go stereo at first (I wouldn't be able to get the surrounds until sometime next summer) or just go for the surround now and slowly sell and upgrade the pieces in the years later on. It's nice getting the better speakers in stereo, though I do game and watch movies quite often so the surrounds. This thread has both helped me and now got me thinking more about what direction I want to go in.

Maybe I could use my MegaWorks speakers as surrounds...

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: The J
I think I'll keep the Audigy 2 ZS. I can always change cards later if I don't like the output of the Audigy. DDL cards should be cheaper then, right?

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I'm not sure if I'll go stereo at first (I wouldn't be able to get the surrounds until sometime next summer) or just go for the surround now and slowly sell and upgrade the pieces in the years later on. It's nice getting the better speakers in stereo, though I do game and watch movies quite often so the surrounds. This thread has both helped me and now got me thinking more about what direction I want to go in.

Maybe I could use my MegaWorks speakers as surrounds...

I was just thinking that about using your current speakers for a while. Do they have speaker wire inputs?
Surround speakers don't really matter all that much, but a good center channel is very important. It's the most used speaker when watching DVDs.

I'm not sure on the price over time of DDL cards.

 

[The J]

The MegaWorks speakers use spring clips. I'm more concerned about tonal differences. I don't want to be playing a game or watching a DVD and find that a plane flying overhead or something like that sounds completely different due the differences in frequency response (the MegaWorks satellites hit a brick wall at about 13KHz and drop off around 125Hz; they don't have tweeters, only a 3.5" midrange) and the fact that the MegaWorks ones are made of plastic.

I had that with my old T5400s because the front speakers had tweeters and the rear ones had 2.5" full range drivers. It bugged the crap out of me. Seriously.

As for the DDL cards, if I decide I need one I'll get it. I'd like to try with the Audigy 2 ZS first, though, since I'm happy with it right now and a sound card would cut into the budget I have now.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Yeah, if you're getting a receiver with 6 channel direct, stick with the A2.

I know what you're saying about the differences in speakers. I could have a 7.1 set right now with mixing different types, but I'd rather have a 5.1 set that matches than adding two speakers that have nothing in common with the others.

Naturally the front three speakers would be the most important to match for movies, but you're right about planes and stuff being noticable if the speakers vary a lot.

 

[The J]

Right now, I'm planning on going with the Onkyo 502 Refurb you linked to. That does have the 6 channel input. I just read about some receivers having a 60Hz tone (ground loop?) when doing so. That's why I asked about that. I'll see what happens, I guess. I did e-mail Onkyo to find that the receiver can't downconvert to composite. I can always buy an AV switcher or something later on if I need it.

You guys are right about getting the better stereo option, but I must admit that right now my desire for nice surround is beginning to override the logic of building up. I figure I could sell the center and surround channels to friends (who thought my MegaWorks were the greatest speakers ever) and build up later should that desire come up anytime soon. Like I said, I wouldn't be able to get new stuff until next summer and that's a long time to wait.

Man, this is harder than I thought it be...

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Nothing wrong with getting a whole set right away and building up later. It's nice that audio equipment doesn't depreciate as fast as a lot of other things (computer stuff for example).

I didn't really lose much money selling my first set of speakers a year after I got them.

I only tried 6 channel direct input for a short period with my old TBSC so I can't comment on the hum.

 

[The J]

If I end up having problems with the Audigy 2 ZS (I don't see why I would, though), I'll just reply back here or create a new thread.

Thanks for the help. I'm pretty sure I know what I want to go with: Onkyo 502 refurb, Fluance SX-HTB, and the Dayton 12".