God's Place in Charter Is Dividing Europeans

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Article

PARIS, May 25 - As the Europeans haggle over the final wording of their first constitution, they are bedeviled by a three-letter word: God.

Mind-numbing arguments over budget rules and weighted voting can be delegated to technocrats. The issue of whether the most ambitious document in European Union history should include a reference to the Continent's Christian heritage is different, an emotional, theological wrangle over the meaning of culture, history and faith.

"Of course, we have a Judeo-Christian past, but the constitution is inspired by a heritage that is cultural, religious and humanist all at once," Michel Barnier, France's new foreign minister, said after a news conference at the Foreign Ministry on Tuesday. He made clear that France would not bend to new pressure to inject religion into the draft, noting that the constitution should be "secular." The current wording, he added, is "well balanced."

But with the entry of 10 new members into Europe this month, many of them predominantly Catholic, positions have hardened.

The one issue European officials seem to agree on is that there will probably be no agreement on religion before a June 17 summit meeting in Brussels, where the constitution is scheduled to be completed.

Last Friday, the foreign ministers of seven of the 25 European Union member countries, including two old members (Italy and Portugal) and five new ones (Poland, Lithuania, Malta, Slovakia and the Czech Republic), sent a brief letter to Ireland, the current holder of the European Union presidency, calling for a last-minute conversion.

"The issue remains a priority for our governments" and "for millions of European citizens," the letter said.

The letter urged "a reference to the Christian roots of Europe," adding in less than perfect English: "The amendment we ask for is aimed to recognize a historical truth. We do not want to disregard neither the secular nature of the European institutions nor the respect of any other religious or philosophical belief."

Granted, the seven may have meant no disrespect. But they know well that Pope John Paul II is firmly on their side. Earlier this month, the 83-year-old pope welcomed the accession of the 10 new member states to the European Union and underlined the Christian values on which the group's unity was based.

At a meeting of European Union foreign ministers in Brussels on Monday, the group of seven issued the text of their letter to their colleagues.

"We are not talking about a reference to Christian values, but to Christian traditions - hence to a historical fact that no one can change," the Polish foreign minister, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz, said at a news conference in Brussels.

The week before, Italy's foreign minister, Franco Frattini, said that all that the seven were asking for was "a small inclusion in the text" that "would not alter the preamble too much."

But other governments have insisted that the preamble of the current draft treaty goes far enough. In its present form, it states that the European Union draws "inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe."

Apparently in a gesture to Europe's Muslims and Jews, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw of Britain warned at the Brussels meeting on Monday against singling out religious tradition.

"If we were to go down the road of making specific reference to one religious tradition, we have to bear in mind other religious traditions and reference to them as well within Europe," he told reporters.

In his comments Tuesday, Mr. Barnier agreed, saying that the current wording reflected Europe's "pluralism."

Spain, meanwhile, which had argued vociferously for the God-and-Christianity position, abruptly shifted sides when the Socialists swept aside the center-right Popular Party in general elections in March.

The text, Spain's new foreign minister, Miguel Ángel Moratinos, told RFI radio on Monday, "is perfect." He added, "Spain is a Catholic country, but at the same time I believe that in this European constitution our government is rather secular, and in this sense we want to respect the text as it currently stands."

Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer of Germany pointed the finger at others. His own government, he told reporters on Monday, is willing to compromise, but several member states "are not prepared to go beyond" the current draft. As a result, he said, "I dare to prophesy that we will have an unchanged situation on this point."

Mr. Barnier, by contrast, declined to play prophet, saying, "When we speak of God, we should never say never."
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,795
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The bigots over there probably see the fate of the bigots over here with our separation of church and state and probably hope to keep a finger in the pie.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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I wish some of the new countries had not entered the EU yet. They are less developped economically, culturally, and intellectually. They need time to move beyond religious nonsense. They have been warped by years of communism. Let's let them embrace religion and get it out of their system before they join the EU. Oh well.

Religion should play no part in the EU constitution. Europe's greatness has not been due to religion. Face it, most of the sadder parts of European history are due to religion.

Ideas that are not based on reason have no part in the constitution.
 

Bowmaster

Senior member
Mar 11, 2002
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"We are not talking about a reference to Christian values, but to Christian traditions - hence to a historical fact that no one can change," the Polish foreign minister, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz, said at a news conference in Brussels.

Wait - this sounds JUST like the arguments the southerners down here use to justify using the confederate flag. You know - "Heritage over Hatred"...
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Face it, most of the sadder parts of European history are due to religion.

Funny...I've never seen religeon DO anything.

In any case, this is just Europe facing the idiocy of the EU...plenty more "pluralism" to come.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Face it, most of the sadder parts of European history are due to religion.

Funny...I've never seen religeon DO anything.

In any case, this is just Europe facing the idiocy of the EU...plenty more "pluralism" to come.


I'm not sure you understand the difference between "due" and "do." One goes to causation, the other is an action.

"...plenty more "pluralism" to come."
I agree to a certain extent. Some Europeans feel it necessary to include religion in their constitution. This is entirely unecessary. Religion has no place in government.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The bigots over there probably see the fate of the bigots over here with our separation of church and state and probably hope to keep a finger in the pie.

have you ever had a post that doesnt include the word bigot?